Why Every Communicator Needs to Think Faster and Talk Smarter - with Matt Abrahams

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Daniel Nestle: welcome, or
welcome back to the trending
communicator. I'm your host, Dan
Nussle.

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So, what if you could
communicate clearly in
situations that might be
stressful so that you could
honestly and authentically
answer tough questions on the
spot. For example, after reading
think faster, talk smarter. The
best selling book on impromptu
speaking by Matt Abrahams, I was

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able to handle a q&a session at
a workshop a few weeks ago, by
applying better listening
skills. And that's not all.
Matt's book also gave me a
killer pitch formula that I'm
using to expand my role and grow
my career. It's also as you
might have guessed by now how I
set up the opening of today's

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show. And the story is true
Matt's book, Think faster, talk
smarter really helped me. It's a
handy guide to getting out of
your own way, gaining
confidence, managing anxiety,
and developing strategies for
speaking when you're put on the
spot, and my listeners will know
how much I truly enjoy being put

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on the spot. So it's really
helpful, a helpful, helpful
book, but don't take my word for
it. It's my immense honor to
have with me today, the man
himself. He's a leading expert
in strategic communication,
public speaking, a consultant to
CEOs and Nobel Laureates. He's a
professor at Stanford

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University's Graduate School of
Business, he's the host of Think
fast talk smart, the podcast.
And yes, the author of think
faster, talk smarter how to
speak successfully when you're
put on the spot, Matt Abrahams,

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Matt Abrahams: it's great to see
you. Great to be here with you.
I'm

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really excited. And I love that
you use the pitch structure I
teach is the way to start. And
in it you shared about how
listening helped you. So you get
an A plus, if you were in Mike
wells, I

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Daniel Nestle: like to get a
little meta and kind of dig in a
little bit with my guests and
understand, you know, how, how,
what they've actually done, how
it's contributed to me and how I
can then turn around and, and
help my guests benefit in some
way. And you know, what you've
done here with with think

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faster, talk smarter, this
incredible book, and I'm holding
it up for Matt to see and see
the little post its I have got
sticking out there, which is
always evidence that someone has
read a book, I think, I think
when you're interviewing
somebody and they don't have
post, it's in the book, you got

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to be a little suspicious.

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Matt Abrahams: Well, I one, it
actually warms my heart, you
know, people that when you write
a book, people often ask, you
know, how do you know if the
book was successful. And and I
don't care if the book gets on
lists or other things, I care
that people actually read it, to
me successes, if their dog years

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post, it's underlined,
highlighted. That, to me, is the
purpose. It's to help people and
if you're finding value in it,
and going to return back to it
to give you that help, then then
I have been successful. So it
actually warms my heart to see
that you've got some posts and
dog ears in there. It really

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helps.

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Daniel Nestle: I mean, well,
well, not only is it is it
helpful, Matt, it's, it's just
practical. I mean, I think it
just speaks to people. Now
speaking for as a as a PR and
comms person, I'm supposed to
have messaging in my blood,
right? I'm supposed to
understand how to go out there

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and talk to people. But speaking
on the spot is always hard. It's
always hard and I've shied away,
almost my entire career, I've
shied away when people say,
Well, you could be the
spokesperson for this and like
now, not me, I'm not the
spokesperson, I am, I'm the guy
behind the spokesperson, I'm the

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guy who likes to write the, you
know, the talking points or can
advise, but you know, what, last
couple years, coming out here on
this show, doing my own thing,
understanding a little bit more
that actually, you know, I, I
probably can speak a little more
out front, I'm getting much more
comfortable with the role of,

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you know, of being in front of
people and talking and a lot of
that, you know, is sort of
organic, right? It just happens
over time you're putting these
positions you put in these these
situations. And you don't
realize that you've been skill,
building your whole life to get
there, right, then along comes a

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book like this. And it's like,
oh, yeah, this is this makes
sense. Oh, now I can put like a
couple of that could put a
formula to what I'm doing. It's
really excellent. And, you know,
I think that for people who
haven't had the benefit of 20
something years of being in
marketing and PR, especially

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that I mean, this book is just
me for any level of your career.
I think it's just a great place
to start. And, you know, it's,
it's a reflection of where
you've been. And, you know, I I
think that's where I want to
actually start talking here
today. I mean, I always talk too
much on these things. But how

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about we start with the way I
usually start, which is why
don't you tell us a little bit
about your journey, Matt, like
how did you get to this point of
I want to tell people I want to
help people

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to speak on the spot. It's a
very unique niche by niche place
to be. Well, it's

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Matt Abrahams: an a much needed
place to be I think so if you
think about it, most of our
communication is in the moment.
It's not the plan presentation
or the pitch or the meeting with
an agenda. It's really these in
the moment situations answering
questions, giving feedback.
Introducing yourself making

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small talk. And there's a
personal story here. And then
there's a professional story
about my interest. So with my
last name, Abraham's a bee, I
have been spontaneous speaking
my entire life all through
school from elementary school,
even through graduate school. I
always knew where I would sit.

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And I always knew that I would
go First Tee I was a high school
teacher for a few years, I am a
teacher, I know sometimes we get
lazy and we just put people
alphabetically. So I growing up
was always put on the spot.
Whenever the teacher asked a
question and they went around
the room, they would start with

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me. So I, I developed a an
expectation around spontaneous
speaking and to some degree, a
level of comfort with it, just
because after doing it so much,
you get a little comfortable.
Fast forward, many, many decades
after elementary school, I was
asked by the Stanford deans of
the business school where I

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teach and had been there for
over 13 years now. They they
came to me with a problem and
they said, our very bright
business students, some of the
best, brightest minds in
business, you know, young minds,
in the world are struggling,
answering teachers cold calls,
the professor would say, What do

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you think? And the students even
knowing the answer would
struggle to get that answer out?
And they said, Is there anything
you could do to help them feel
more comfortable and confident,
and that was my portal to
exploring this whole idea. So I
did a deep dive into research in
psychology, sociology,

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anthropology, neuroscience,
improvisation and acting. And as
a result, created a methodology
that now every Stanford MBA
student, within the first three
weeks of their time on campus
has the opportunity to go
through this content, they come
out of it feeling more
comfortable and confident in

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their non in their speaking in
the moment, and the professors
are saying, Hey, we're getting
better dialogue, better
conversation. So this
methodology was born out of a
very specific need. And over the
years, I took it out of the
classroom, and I've been using
it in the teaching, I do the

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videos, I produced the podcast I
do. And I've seen how others can
benefit. So that was really the
impetus for the book is to bring
this information to as many
people as possible, so we can
actually all do better speaking
in the moment,

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Daniel Nestle: it's, it's really

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needed. You know, I think I'm
gonna probably say this 100
times during our conversation,
but how necessary this is. I
think it's even more so now that

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we are such a kind of, we're for
strewn

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about the universe as remote
workers and in person workers.
And, you know, you have
different modes and different.
Let's say theatres, in which you
have to communicate every day.
Yeah, it's always different,
always changing. And I think it
causes a lot of pain. I like for
people who have been in

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corporate life, their whole
career who've been in, and
they're only coming to grips
with it now, I think. And some
folks are absolutely jumping in
and saying this is fantastic.
Some people, I think, are having
some little consternation about
the whole thing. So I wanted to
ask you, about, you know, those

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pain points that people are kind
of having, and you know, what
you're seeing, and I know you're
dealing with students a lot, and
especially MBA students, MBA
students typically have some
experience and work experience
behind them. And, you know,
you've you've counseled and
consulted with people across

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industries, and are very deep
into what I like to call our
profession, the communications
profession, in many ways. So
thinking about like,

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thinking about that, what your
book points out six, kind of,
you

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know, steps or strategies or
overall topic areas that we can
think about the pain speaking
on, you know, when you're put on
the spot, can we go through some
of those a little bit and just
talk through the steps and try
to gear it a little bit towards
like, people who are might be
having trouble with this these

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days?

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.
So the the book is divided into
two sections. The first section
is the methodology. I'm happy
now to walk you through the six
steps. And then the second part
is all about very specific,
spontaneous speaking situations
that we find ourselves in like
answering questions, giving

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feedback, small talk pitching,
as you gave an example when you
started. So happy to talk about
that later. The the six step
methodology divides into four
mindset or approach steps and
then to messaging or framework
steps. So in terms of where we
start, the first thing we have
to deal with is anxiety. Anxiety

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looms large in all
communication, and it's part of
being human. We get nervous when
we speak in front of others, but
there are things we can do to
manage that anxiety and in the
very first Step in the first
chapter I talk about very
specific, academically verified
techniques we can use to begin

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to reduce our anxiety and build
our confidence in speaking. The
second step has us looking at
our goal. Many of us when we
speak in spontaneous speaking
situations want to do it right,
we want to be perfect, we want
to answer the question, with the
right answer, we want to give
the best feedback, we want to be

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the most interesting in small
talk. And that pressure we put
on ourselves to be perfect gets
in the way of us actually
getting it done. So I like to
say strive for connection over
perfection, when I put my focus
on connecting and getting my
ideas across to you, rather than
Am I saying it the right way, I

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do better. And it boils down to
cognitive load, your brain can
only process so much at one
time. And if I am focused on
judging and evaluating
everything, I'm saying, I'm
splitting that cognitive load,
and I have less to actually be
present with you. So I'm not
saying don't judge and evaluate,

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we need to but turn the volume
down. Put your attention on the
other person. So that's step
two. Yeah, Step. Go ahead.

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Daniel Nestle: I'm sorry, man,
can I just just interrupt there
for a second. And I apologize,
because I know you've been
through this, like you've been
on the tour, you're talking
about these steps. That these
two, these first two in
particular, were screaming at
me, when I was written the book.

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And this, this whole idea of
cognitive load and connection,
connection versus over
perfection, but, you know,
people, especially in our, in
our world, were in the
communications world where we
are, you know, we have to
produce q&a and talking points,
and they got to be right, they

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got to be right, they got to be
right. And I think it mistakenly
translates into well, now when I
talk to the CEO, or I talk to
some in front of somebody, I
always have to be right. And I
always have to be on. So
shifting, that mindset is so
hard, right? It's so hard to
say, okay, don't let perfect be

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the enemy of good or whatever
way you want to whatever way you
want to call it. And, you know,
and I think it's it's very, very
directly connected to anxiety,
it certainly drives anxiety.
Right? And I, personally have
had loads of anxiety issues
during my career, and during my
time, and I was hoping that you

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could just just dig into these
two things at first, and then we
can move on to the third one

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after that. So

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Matt Abrahams: yeah, yeah, so
certainly, so when it comes to
managing anxiety, you are not
alone. Most people up to 85% of
people report being anxious in
high stakes situations. And
quite frankly, I think the other
15% are lying. When it comes to
managing anxiety, we have to
take a two pronged approach.

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First, we have to manage
symptoms, those are the things
that we physiologically
experience. And then we also
have to manage sources. Those
are the things that initiate and
exacerbate our anxiety. So when
it comes to symptomatic relief,
maybe it's you feel your heart
beating faster, maybe you

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blushing perspire, maybe you get
shaky, these are all normal and
natural, your body is responding
to the communication situation
as if it were a threat, and you
invoke fight or flight when
under threat. single best thing
anybody can do is to take a deep
belly breath, the kind you would
take, if you've ever done yoga,

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or tai chi or Chi Gong, it's a
deep belly breath. And what it
does is it calms down your
autonomic nervous system, the
key is to have your exhalation
be twice as long as your
inhalation. So the rule of lung
if you will, is to take a three
count in and a six count out.
And if you do that just two or

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three times you'll see some
benefit of doing it. Now if
you're really shaky, that's
adrenaline adrenaline sole
purpose is to move you from
threat to safety. So doing some
kind of purposeful movement that
that is one that's embracing can
really help. So when you start
if you're physically in a room

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with people step towards your
audience, or if you're virtual,
when you begin speaking lean in
a little bit gesture, this gives
that adrenaline a place to go.
Therefore, you'll stop shaking
as much. Finally, if you're like
me, and you turn red and you
perspire, when you get nervous,
that's your core body

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temperature going up, we need to
reduce that. And by holding
something cold in the palms of
your hand, you actually cool
yourself down. When you get
nervous, your heart beats
faster, your body tenses up,
your blood pressure goes up
because you're pushing more
blood through tighter tubes.

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It's like you're exercising. So
we need to cool ourselves down
and holding something cold can
do that. So that's symptomatic
relief. And there are many many
other techniques. The first book
I wrote was called speaking up
without freaking out it's 50
techniques based on academic
research to help you reduce your

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anxiety and build your
confidence. So you have to find
the ones that work for you. Not
every technique works for every
person. The other side of the
equation is sources. And I
already started talking about
one of the main sources which is
striving for perfection. So we
have to remind ourselves I am in

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service of my audience by
thinking about the needs of the
audience that takes attention
away from ourselves and away
from trying to be perfect, and
puts it more on connection, and
how do I make this meaningful
for you? And when I do that, I
nip that source in the bud and
become less nervous about the

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speaking and more concerned
about the connection. So that's
how those first two steps
connect together. Oh,

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Daniel Nestle: that makes sense.
I did want to I did want to
share with you that I did do my
own anxiety management plan or
Cooper your book. Yeah. And mine
is called pits, PITS, which is
not telling me

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Matt Abrahams: what it stands
for really entitled living in
your armpits,

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Daniel Nestle: no positive
intent. Right. Inhale, exhale,
right.

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So the breathing, right, so be
positive first, then inhale,
exhale, because, and then
because of what you have just
said, then think, take a pause
and think mindfully. And then I
used to salivate, like, take
care of that physical symptom of
dry mouth, because I always have
that. So that's my, that's my

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initial kind of stab at an AMP.
And I, I really love in the
book, how you lay a lot of these
symptoms out. And also in the,
if you do get, especially if you
get the audio book, but I
believe even if you purchase the
book, there are additional
resources on Matt's website that
have these things all detailed

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out, we can get back there.
Yeah, later, but it's amazing.

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Matt Abrahams: There's a there's
a simple QR code, you click on
it and you go to this whole
website that has additional
stuff that I update pretty
regularly. I love your anxiety
management plan is great. Mine
is three simple things. I take a
deep breath, I remind myself I'm
in service of my audience. And I

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say tongue twisters before I
start communication to warm up
my voice and get me present
focused.

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Daniel Nestle: So I love tongue
twisters. What's your favorite
one?

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Matt Abrahams: Ah, you have to
repeat it after me. Go for it.
It's three phrases takes five
seconds. And if you say it
wrong, you say a naughty word.
So repeat after me. I slit a
sheet.

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Daniel Nestle: I slit a sheet, a
sheet, I

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Matt Abrahams: slit a sheet I
slit and on that slitted sheet I
sit and on that slitted sheet I
said very good. You didn't say
the naughty word. You could see
what it would be though.

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Daniel Nestle: That's a good
one. Yeah, I've always been a
big fan of tongue twisters. And
my favorite one just your

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Matt Abrahams: voice and they
get great and oriented. It is
great. I liked the Betty Botter.
One, it's do that one, that it's

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Daniel Nestle: easy for somebody
from the East Coast who's like,
who doesn't pronounce T's
properly. So Betty butter,
butter, butter butter, if you
bought you know, you can sort of
slur those together, you can
slide them around and you know,
impress people at the same time.
Sorry. So let's let's get back.

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I am I'm very I'm very, always
grateful for for distractions.
But that's against rule number
six, or number six in the
methodologies, which is the F
word of communication. We'll get
to that in a few minutes. Let's
get back to the third point. So
your we talked about reducing
anxiety, we talked about

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connection of perfection. Next.
Yes.

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Matt Abrahams: So the next step
in the methodology has to do
with reframing these situations
not as threats, but as as seeing
them as opportunities. Many of
us when we are in the moment of
having to respond spontaneously,
we see them as threats, we see
them as something that is
harmful to us. So when somebody

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asks a question, we feel like
we're under threat where this is
a test, I have to respond,
versus seeing it as an
opportunity, an opportunity to
connect, to expand to learn to
collaborate. Even in the
situation where the questions
are most challenging or the
feedback feels like it is the

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request for feedback is some
kind of gauntlet you have to get
through. Even in those moments,
it's an opportunity to find
commonality, and to help. And if
we can reframe these situations,
that way, it can benefit us. So
when I have somebody who's
really harsh and really
challenging, I remind myself

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that they're coming from a place
where they care about the topic
to the same degree I do, or they
have some passion for it,
there's a place I can connect
much better than dealing with
somebody who's apathetic and
doesn't care. So the third step
is a whole slew of techniques to
help you see these things as

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positive connective and
collaborative. Step four is
about listening. We have to
listen intently. So we know how
to respond appropriately. Most
of us listen just enough to get
the gist of what somebody is
saying. And then we go into our
practicing rehearsing, judging,
evaluating, instead of listening

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for the top line, we need to
listen for the bottom line. And
in listening for the bottom
line, we listened in a more
focused way and we will pay
attention to nuance to the
circumstance to the situation to
people's nonverbal behavior. So
when we listen better, we can
respond better. So step three is

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about seeing it as opportunity.
Step four is about listening.

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Daniel Nestle: Excellent. Step
three. When

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we think about onions, these are
all all these are so
interconnected, as well, as as
you speak, I can hear it even
more. You know, it's funny
because I listened to The book
on audio and I read it at the
same time because I find that to
be a really good way of getting
it in there. And I got so

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enamored with your voice, so I'm
listening to you speak now. And
I'm like, yes. Okay, this is,
it's really becoming clearer and
clearer to me. The, the idea of
mindset is really kind of
underpins so much of this does
not, does it not, I mean, just,
I've spoken about it on the show
before I've had people to come

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and talk about mindset and
leadership mindset, and, you
know, and, and success mindset
mindset mindset. And you
mentioned the Carol Dweck book
in your, in your, in your book
as well. You know, I've gotten
feedback on occasion that says,
Well, you know, it's just a
simple mental exercise.

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I don't think so. You know, I

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feel like mindset is a much
harder thing to accomplish. And,
and

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I was, you know, just, just
curious or,

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you know, wondering if there are
any, you know, what you've done
to, to keep that in front of
mind in front of center, as you
go through your day to day even
because I think it's something
that has to underpin almost all
of communication is that
mindset, it's it's that growth
mindset to seeing opportunities,

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rather than, than problems and
seeing the future rather than
the past. You know, there's
there's a lot there to,

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Matt Abrahams: to unpack. So
mindset is critical to effective
communication, and I believe to
just being effective in life.
And, to me, I'm always thinking
about what are the tactics and
practices I can use to help
myself and others? So let me
share a few that helped me as I
tried to be more open in my

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mindset. And I do a quote Carol
Dweck and others who study this.
I'm very fortunate on my podcast
to have interviewed Alia Crum,
who does amazing work around
mindset. And let me give you
just a few in the book, I
actually give forced four
different mindset hacks, if you
will, or unlocks to help. I'll

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just give you a few of them. One
is this notion of not yet. And
this comes directly from Carol
Dweck. So work on growth
mindset, growth mindset is all
about when you meet, when you
don't perform as well as you
wish when when things don't go
the way you want. Rather than
saying, I'm a bad person, I'm

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not capable, you see and search
out growth opportunities to
improve on that. And one of the
things she talks about is this
not yet approach. So when
something doesn't go the way you
want it to when you didn't
achieve what you had hoped to
achieve. Simply say to yourself,
not yet. It doesn't mean I can't

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it doesn't mean I won't, it just
means not yet, not now, and
that's a very motivational place
to be, then you can begin
thinking about what do I need to
accomplish in order to get to
where I want to be so not yet is
really powerful. And when I have
some kind of stumbler, or
something doesn't go the way I

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want, I will say to myself, not
yet. Another approach, which I
think is really helpful comes
from the world of sport. It was
I first heard of it, through the
famous college basketball coach
Mike chef ski Coach K, as he is
referred to, he inculcated in
his team. And it really is
permeated all sports, this

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notion of next play. And next
play simply means that when
something doesn't go the way you
want, immediately move to the
next play thinking about what's
next rather than ruminating in
the moment, if you're a
basketball player and you miss a
shot, you sit there going, Oh,
I've practiced that shot so many

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times, I can't believe I missed
it, this is awful, you've missed
the next play, the other team is
already down the court, you're
not there defending. Similarly,
if you have an amazing shot, and
it's great, don't sit there
congratulating yourself because
again, the team is down the
court and you're not down there.

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When something goes wrong, the
tendency for us is to ruminate,
to try to dissect it and fix it
in that moment. And that means
you're not in the next moment
where something is happening
that you could add value. So I
want to avoid rumination in the
moment. But we certainly want to
do reflection after the fact

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reflection is really critical to
growth to to improving to
learning. But next play. So
those are two of just several
techniques for how you can adopt
a more opportunistic mindset.
Not yet. Next play those will
really help.

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Daniel Nestle: I am so into that
whole next play idea i I often
forget it. As I go through my
day to day you get weighed down
by the minutia, or the big
things, you know that that are
unavoidable. A lot of them are
externalities, a lot of them are
things that come up at work,
things that just will happen all

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the time and you dwell, you
know, dwell, dwell, dwell, and
you get in your own head. And
that,

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I think, is something I well, I

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mean, I've heard from feedback
every now and then Dan, you're
getting in your own head. You're
too far into your own head.
Let's step out. And it's
something that I in turn, try To
see and other people who are who
I might be managing, or I might
be leading, or who I'm working
with, you know, just say, You

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know what, let's take a breath.
Let's take a beat. Let's, let's
get out of our own head. And
let's, let's, let's see what's
coming up next. I find it to be
such a critical tactic almost,
but it's not really tactic, I
think, because it has to be
built into your programming, you
know, you have to, you have to

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really

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practice it. Get it in there,
reprogram

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yourself. What do they call it?
Thank Thank goodness for
neuroplasticity so that you can
so that you can, you know, kind

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of change, change your era,

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your behaviors? Absolutely.

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Matt Abrahams: So we can learn
new things and work and work on
new ways of being sure. Yeah,

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Daniel Nestle: but that getting
inside your head is such a big
one. And I think I think people,
you know, if they pick up one
thing, from from this, it's,
it's get out of your own way.
And that is such a it's a
mindset issue. You know, for the
most part it as far as, as far
as I've seen. So you were saying

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that those are the mindset, the
points about mindset. And, you
know, I wanted to go back to the
to listening. So listening was
the was the next point. Yes.
And, you know,

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another one that that I think,
gets such short shrift in

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a day to day world? How can we
be better listeners, we've been
we've been hearing about this
for years, you lay it out really
nicely. You know, how, with in
connection with mindset in
connection with with, with
anxiety reduction, and if you're
a better listener, the anxiety
goes down.

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It's a, you know, surprised
everybody.

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Calm down, listen, your anxiety
will go down. But what would you
say are some of the things that
you would recommend to, to
reduce or to to be a better
listener?

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so first
and foremost, just recognizing
the importance of listening,
listening is really, really
important. And we need to do it.
We need to spend the time doing
it. As I said, we listen for the
top line, not the bottom line.
When we listen, well, we get
more insight into what is

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needed. Imagine you and I come
out of a meeting. And you say,
Hey, Matt, how'd that go? And I
hear oh, feedback. Well, we
could have done this better, we
should have done this, we
shouldn't have done that, and
itemize all the things that went
wrong and all the things we
could have done better. Had I

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listened more deeply, I would
have noticed that you asked that
question while looking down,
your tone was was quiet, you
would actually come out the back
door, not the front door. In
that moment, you weren't looking
for feedback, you were looking
for support in my itemization of
all the things that went wrong,

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only make you feel worse. And I
may have ruin that moment and
potentially negatively affected
our future interactions. Because
I didn't listen deeply. So in
the book, I talk about a three
step approach to help people
listen better. And I borrow this
from a colleague of mine at the
business school, his name is

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Collins Dobbs, he teaches a
crucial communication class like
high stakes communication, and
he has this methodology that
helps and it works perfectly for
listening. Three things pace,
space, Grace, I love this. We
live in a world where everything
is moving so fast, we have to
slow down, you cannot listen

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intently and move quickly, you
have to be slow, slow down.
Second, we have to not just
address pace. But we also have
to give ourselves space,
sometimes it's physical space,
get to a place where you can
actually hear well, more
importantly, it's mental space,
free up the bandwidth to be

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present in the moment, you will
listen better if you're present,
if you're distracted, if you're
looking at a device, it is a
problem. And then finally,
grace, grace is about giving
yourself permission to do the
pace in space. But it's also to
give yourself permission to pay
attention to not just the words,

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but how the words are said where
the words are said and
permission to listen to your
intuition that comes up as a
result of what people say,
because of our experience when
somebody says something that
might remind us of something or
trigger something in us. And
that's useful information as

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well. So pace, space and grace,
along with the techniques I
recommend for practicing in in
this particular chapter will
help you to be a better
listener. And I talked about
asking follow up questions and
paraphrasing and being okay,
taking silence for a moment to
process. All of those things

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will help

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Daniel Nestle: you be a better
listener. All that

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I mean, listening for what's
unsaid was one of the things
that jumped out at me as well.
You know, just just

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how do you how do you kind of

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just what, in fact example you
you shared the hypothetical you
shared of us coming out of a
meeting room, right? Looking at
Hearing those hearing the words
how to go and jumping
immediately to feedback. You
know, what was unsaid was I
didn't I really I just had a bad
time in there. I'm not feeling

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good about myself. Right?

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I act that's such a, that has
been

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a revelatory thing for me in the
last several years. And I feel
like the the pace of
technological change and I feel
like certainly the the reliance
on zoom in these, these various
communication mediums to
compress time and space in such
a way that we forget about
pacing and spacing, and

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certainly don't, we don't have a
lot of grace, right?

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You know, the everyday we're on
these, whether

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you're you know, especially if
you're a remote worker, or you
are you're in a hybrid
situation, your schedule is, is
planned to the hour to the
minute, boom, boom, boom, one
after another, you don't have
this kind of ability to say,
hey, let's take a walk.

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Unknown: That's like, Oh,

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Daniel Nestle: that's a great
example of space. Let's take a
walk. And let's talk about
things. And I feel like this is
something that we really need to
pay closer attention to.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. And I
love, I love this notion of
walking. So at the business
school at Stanford, there's
research that says, when you
walk and talk, you actually
connect better, you're out in
nature, you're moving, you're
more focused. So at the Stanford
Business School, we all of us

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who teach there, not all of us,
many of us who teach there, do
what we call talks, walking and
talking. So when you set up a
meeting, it can be an in person
meeting, a virtual meeting or a
talk. And I have had some of the
most enriching great connective
conversations, while walking
around the campus, talking with

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my colleagues. Now I have to
share with you a few of my
colleagues, I think I'm in OK,
shape, a few of these folks are
in great shape. And I ended up
being out of breath, because
they're walking so fast and
talking. But it's a great way to
force yourself to connect, and
you'll listen better. I missed

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Daniel Nestle: those days, I
missed the times where you do
walking meetings, you know,
yeah. Or even. And, you know,
it's on the personal side. Now
that you mentioned it, it's
those twice daily walks I do
with my wife with the dogs.
Yeah, that are such an important
way for us to connect and bond

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together, you know, you're when
we're in the house, doing, you
know, I'm working, she's doing
her own thing got kids to deal
with, yeah,

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we're out there walking,

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put the phones in the back
pocket, don't pay attention to
those. And all you got is you,
you guys, you know you your
partner in the dogs. You don't
need dogs clearly if you want to
go on a walk. But I you know,
now that you mentioned it really
does this make a lot of sense.
And

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Matt Abrahams: you know, since
the pandemic, during the
pandemic, my wife and I took to
walking daily. And we have kept
that that tradition. And it's
really connective, and we
learned that, that we actually
have a flow to our work. So we
start by checking in with each
other. And we deal with sort of

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the blocking and tackling of
being a couple and parents. And
then we just enjoy nature and
enjoy each other's company. And
that rhythm is also very helpful
to us.

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Daniel Nestle: And it's the only
place that you can be where you
know, you're not going to be
overheard by the kids.

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Matt Abrahams: That That's true.
That's true. I haven't I haven't
found them following us yet.

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Daniel Nestle: That's very
tactically important thing to
do. So those those first four
areas are the other more of the
mindset issues, right? Yes. And
you said that there are two more
and I know there's two more,
because I've read the book that
are more focused on structure
and tactics. So let's look

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within the next two parts of the
methodology. I like this
breaking into twos by the way,
everything you

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Matt Abrahams: said is all that
you just recapped is all about
mindset. That's how you approach
these situations. Once we have
that approach, we then actually
have to say something I mean,
it's spontaneous communication.
So we have to either write or
speak. And the second two steps
are first structure have a

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framework. And then the second
is is the focus. So Step six is
about focus, as we alluded to.
So I believe very firmly, that
messages need to be structured,
well packaged in a way that
helps the listener and receiver
understand it. Our brains
neuroscientists tell us are not
wired or designed for lists of

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an itemization of information.
Our brains are actually designed
for story. In fact, long term
memory is called episodic memory
episodes. So to me a story or
structure is nothing more than a
logical connection of ideas, a
beginning, a middle and an end.
The one we are all familiar
with, if you've ever watched a

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television advertisement, or
pitched an idea, you have used
problem solution benefit. Here's
a problem, a challenging issue.
Here's how we solve it. And
here's the benefit to you of
having done so problem solution
benefit. This is a very common
structure. Like I said, we see
it in advertising all the time.

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And it's very useful in that it
helps us to know where to start
know where to end. For me as the
communicator helps me prioritize
what I say for you as the
listener. It helps package it up
in a nice way. So we must
structure our content. And there
are myriad structures. In the
book. The second part of the

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book, I have six spontaneous
speaking situations in which
each I assign or give at least
one structure, not to say that
this is the only way to
communicate. But it is a way.
And when you're in that moment,
like, Oh, my goodness, how do I
respond to this feedback
request, you have something you

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can invoke to help you. In many
ways, it's like a recipe, you
can be a better cook. If you
follow a recipe. Having a recipe
gives you a place to start, you
have freedom to move beyond the
recipe to change things in the
recipe, but it gives you a place
to start. So my goal is not to
have everybody speak and answer

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questions the same way or give
feedback the same way. It's to
give people a tool to help them
start, so they can then respond
better in the moment. So for
second part is about the first
part of the second set of no
methodology. Step five is about
structure. Step six is about
focus. How do you be concise? My

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mother has this saying that I
think captures this well tell
the time don't build the clock.
Many of us are clock builders,
either, because we are
discovering what we want to say
as we're saying it, or we want
to demonstrate the depth of our
thought and experience. Most
people just want to know the

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time in the military, they say
bottom line up front, just give
us the time. And if we want to
know the how the clock was
built, we will ask you so
structure and concision are what
are critical to actually
delivering good in the moment
communication.

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Daniel Nestle: It's no lie that
I have trouble with concision.

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Matt Abrahams: And you said that
very concisely? Yes,

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Daniel Nestle: I was thinking
about it, I do. I do some clock
building on occasion. And I am,
you know, some of it is just
pure curiosity, I'm working out
where I want to go. And because
I know there's a there there.
And I'm trying to find that find
it. And the exploration is
somewhat fun for me. But it

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might not be very fun for my
listeners, and for people that
I'm talking with. And that's
part of like focusing on the
audience and understanding what
they're looking for. I also
really enjoy the idea of the
recipe, one thing you said in
the book, is that when you are,
you know, when you when you,

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when you have a structure, it's
not really for you, it's for the
audience, as well as the
audience. People are wired you
said to, to, to their program to
understand or listen to story.
And putting everything in the
framework of a story or have a
have a clear, beginning, middle
and novelist. And to do lists

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are great, but right you say
that in the book too. But to
have a actual structure where
there is a beginning and a
starting point and destination
helps everyone to understand
what you're trying to say. And
that is what a communication is
all about. Right? It's that it's
if you don't convey the message

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you fail. And I really love that
about the structures. That's

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Matt Abrahams: right. That's
right. And thank you for
summarizing that very
eloquently. Oh, better than I
think I did in the book. So
thank you.

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Daniel Nestle: Well, you know,
it's it is part of to be fair,
it

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is something that I do every
day, but also,

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I have, I have, I have a deep
interest

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in storytelling and in some of
the methodologies that are out
there. And I spent a lot of time
working with a gentleman named
Park Howell, I don't know if you
ever come across Park.

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He he he called he has a

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great podcast called the
business of the business of
story. And, and he is a
proponent of the abt framework,
abt method. And but therefore
very simple,

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right? So that's a classic, you
know, Hero's Journey story. And
you have your setup, you have
your conflict, and you have your
resolution.

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And I think, you know, that fits
in it's it's, it's problem
solution benefit in a different
way. It's yeah, it's, you know,
compare contrasts conclusion in
a different way. So I'm a big
fan of frameworks, anything that
can help me get the message
across,

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Matt Abrahams: they give you a
jumpstart, they make your life
easier, right? It when you
speak, period, you have to think
about what to say and how to say
it, the structure tells you or
gives you an idea of how to say
it. So now I have less effort, I
just have to think about what to
put in the structure. When I

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teach this to my students, I
will do something not to show
off, but I'll say, I'll ask my
students to give me a topic. And
they will give me a random
topic. And within five seconds,
I will give a five minute
presentation based on whatever
topic they throw out. And
they're like, Wow, how did you

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do that? And I said, I cheated.
I will use the structure. Once I
all I do is take your topic,
think about what's the best
structure and then I just talk
about it. And it makes it
easier. Now I'm not saying
everybody can do that or
shouldn't do that. But there is
a multiplier effect that

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catalyst effect when you have a
structure because it takes the
pressure off. You know how you
will say it. It's like Got a
map, I know where I'm going.
Now, I don't necessarily know
every turn, I'm going to take,
but I know where I'm going to
end up. And I know the general
direction I'm going. And that's

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so helpful. I

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Daniel Nestle: love that. And I,
I always forget it, you know,
you're in the pressure of
pressure situation. And this is
part of that taking a breath and
pausing and thinking, because if
that, in that first breath, in
that first pause, you can think
through what that model needs to
be. And, you know, doctor, heal

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thyself is sometimes what I get
accused of. But when the
pressure is on, actually, you
know it, I have, so I have a
problem with deference. I'll
just be right out there, where,
where if I'm talking to somebody
who is senior to me are much
more accomplished than I am, you
know, I get in my head and I,

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it's, it's impostor syndrome,
maybe it used to be that a
little bit getting better at
that. But it's more like, I grew
up my professional life, the
first 15 years of my
professional life was in Japan,
where hierarchy is really
important. And when a CEO or
somebody who's my boss says to

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me, you know, Hey, get me the
answer to some to XYZ, I am very
deferential. So that affects my
anxiety as well. But here, in
modern culture here in the
Americas, that's not the way it
is, like people, it's a much
flatter expectation. You know,
in the end, when you're when
you're overly deferential, you

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know, you don't necessarily
convey the kind of trust or
friendliness or openness that
you know, some of the executives
are looking for. So that's where
the framework does get to be
very helpful, because I don't
have to worry about deference. I
don't have to worry about social
position, I just have to worry

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about giving a good answer. And
it's very comforting. You know,
to understand that,

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Matt Abrahams: I love it.
Absolutely. That level of
awareness is is something I
strive to have all of my
students feel comfortable with
that that's great. It is such

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Daniel Nestle: a such a I don't
know, such a benefit to
understand that. And, you know,
sometimes you have to wait till
the questions asked, right, or
what the situation is. You're
talking about just how you give
your student your students give
you a topic. That reminds me of
my time in Toastmasters, you do

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the typical topics. Yeah. You
know, not to brag, but you are
looking at the the Tokyo region
I forget the number the region
but Tokyo region, something
rather, Table Topics champion
of, you know, I think it was
2002, or three or four or
something like that. I was Oh,
yeah. It was a long time because

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I was doing I was in a
Toastmasters Club through
gardener. I wasn't working for
gardeners just in my
neighborhood where I lived. And
yeah, I did Table Topics. I love
to eat, which are in Japanese in
English and English today. Yeah,
it was an English Club, which
gave me an unfair advantage in

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this in this in the semifinals,
I will admit, but I did really
enjoy table topics. And
sometimes when

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I'm, when I'm faced with a
question that I, you know, I

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don't know how to answer
immediately, I have to go back
to what worked

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in the Table Topics time. And
it's very helpful. And it's

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because we approach things with
the expectation, or we have this
expectation, going back to your
second point, the second part of
the methodology that we have to
be perfect, right. And, and
tabletop is is a great example
of how you don't need to be
perfect, you just have to get it
get a story that makes sense.

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And that either informs
entertains or gets your point
across in a succinct manner. And
that is enough to really move
the ball keep the ball moving
forward, I think is the thing
like you may, you'll get follow
on questions if you don't quite
get it right the first way but
at least

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you're not going to turn off
your audience or or kill the
subject. You'll be able to keep
the conversation going.

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Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. And I
love that you are a big
proponent of and beneficiary of
Toastmasters. I what I'm a
former Toastmaster myself, I
think it's a great organization.
I recently spoke at their
international convention. I
think Toastmasters is a great
avenue to build communication

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skills, leadership skills, and
especially spontaneous speaking
skills.

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Daniel Nestle: It's amazing. I
don't know where I would you
look back at the experience in
your life

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and you think, you know, how did
I? How did

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I get to where I am? Or where
were the choices that I made?
And you inevitably go through?
Not, you know, to sort of
counter against the idea of not
dwelling on the past. Sometimes
you do too well, and you think
about the choices you made
Toastmasters great choice, great
choice. It's one of those great

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things, I think that's
absolutely, yeah. So we've gone
through these six, the
methodology, and everybody needs
to you need to read this book to
get the details of all these
things for sure. The second part
of the book is practical
applications. And I focused in
on the pitch mostly, and on some

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of the small talk points. But
and I also you know, I also
really, really enjoy just the
way that you lay out your
examples. So are there any,
like, if you think about the
communications world, and in the
marketing world, that pitch is
one of the things I think that
people like how do you influence

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somebody to get your, to get
your either to sell your
product, or can influence more
often influence someone
internally, you know, in a
meeting and in a, in a
contentious, you know, battle
over over territory or
presenting a new idea. So
there's, you know, when you're

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in a space that's constantly
changing, and you are justifying
your survival because of a
budget, or because of a new, you
know, because

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of competition. Staying on top
of that, with great, great on
the spot speaking skills, I
think puts you in such a

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terrific advantage put you in
such an advantageous position
and helps you really earn the
confidence and contribute value
to your organization of

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the of the, of the five or
sorry, six

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practical applications, what do
you think communicators and
marketers should be really
focused on?

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From your perspective, Matt?
Well, so

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Matt Abrahams: let me share I'll
share the specific Well, I think
actually, all of the all the six
that I have mentioned in the
book apply to people who are
marketing, PR, etc. So you know,
you're answering questions,
you're giving feedback, you're
introducing yourself, you're
making toasts, you're making

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small talk, you're certainly
pitching. So I think all of them
apply the key across all of it.
If you said, what's the one bit
of advice that I would give to
people in your profession and
the profession I train people to
be in communication, it is, know
your audience, know your
audience be focused on their

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needs, take the time to do the
reconnaissance, reflection and
research on the people you're
communicating to, even if it's
spontaneous, you're going into a
situation where you're on a
panel or a cocktail party, think
about who's going to be there,
what's important to them. You
know, in the podcast, I do think

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fast talk smart. We have over
100 plus episodes, the number
one most frequent bit of advice
given by communication experts
from all over the place, is know
your audience, they say it in
different ways. It's about you,
it's about them. It's not about
you be audience centric. My my
favorite recent one is what is

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the listening you are speaking
into. All of these are different
unique ways of saying we have to
be focused on our audience. So I
think the different
methodologies and the different
examples I give are certainly
relevant. I'm happy to I want to
articulate the one you used at
the beginning if that's okay,

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please. Yeah. But otherwise, I
mean, really, it boils down to
know your audience. Yeah. When
it comes to pitching, I have a
structure that I developed out
of necessity, that I think helps
people very quickly and
concisely put forth an idea, a
product or a service yourself,
if you're pitching yourself in

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its four sentence starters. And
you used it beautifully when you
started our conversation today.
The four starters are what if
you could, so that, for example.
And that's not all? What if you
could, so that, for example, and
that's not all. And if you
dissect these, you can see that
they're doing very specific

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things. What if you could is a
hook gets you involved gets you
thinking about potential
benefits. So that is your
relevance. It's solving a
problem. It's capturing an
opportunity, for example, makes
it real and concrete. We
remember concrete detail better
than high level information. And

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then finally, the and that's not
all shows that this has legs,
this is bigger than just what
you're talking about. So I'd
love to do something with you
right now just to show people
how this can work spontaneously.
I'm going to put you on the spot
and I'm going to ask you to give
me a product or a service or

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something. And I'm going to
pitch it in this structure. And
for everybody listening. This is
not planned, whatever I'm
presented with, I did not know I
was getting well okay, say,
Okay,

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Daniel Nestle: I know that you
have this big improv background.
And and I'm trying to, I'm
trying to find something
interesting. And I'm just going
to look around my room and I'm
going to say

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Unknown: whiteboards.

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Matt Abrahams: Ah, what if you
could capture in the moment,
your best, most creative ideas
so that you and your team could
further elaborate and execute on
them. For example, imagine your
next strategic planning meeting,
where you want to make sure
you're identifying your mission,
vision values, and the steps you

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will take to achieve it. And
that's not all. You can use this
whiteboard device to not just
capture ideas, but also as a fun
tool to collect to connect
people through having different
people draw and capture
information simultaneously. I I
didn't know you're gonna ask me
to do that I didn't know I'd

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ever have to pitch a whiteboard.
But through that structure, it
was able to get me through it. I
don't know how long I took to
think about my response, but at
least you can assess if it was a
compelling pitch or not. But do
you see how it gave me a place
to start?

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Daniel Nestle: I did. And, you
know, it reminds me reminds me
of the game that you play in the
book where you're where people
have to go around and give the
wrong names to things. And, and
I, as soon as I said whiteboard,
I was like, should I thought of
something better? Because
that's, that's what we do with a

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we strive for, you know, we
don't think our answers are the
right ones, or they are the good
ones. And, but then I realized,
as you were speaking, as, you
know, it doesn't matter. The
point is that you are able to
take some random topic and, you
know, deliver through a
framework, a killer pitch, you

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know, and of course, if it was,
if we're talking about software,
or we're talking about energy,
or we're talking about, like in,
like, in my business, water,
toilets, toilets, and showers,
and faucets, different, the
pitch will be different, but the
fundamental structure works. And
yeah, I love structuring the

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beginning of the show about it,
because it felt a little bit
more, you know, I guess,
abstract, you know, because
it's, it's, it was,

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it's a podcast, or

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a book or so outside, tried to
figure out the best way to
introduce the topic, and there's
1000 ways to do it. But I
really, I hope that our
listeners really understand

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how useful and how

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immediately applicable this
these frameworks are. It's,
it's, it's amazing. Sometimes,
just just distilling things down
to the simplest things. You
know, our industry loves that,
but it's really good to see it
in action.

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Unknown: Absolutely, yeah,

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Matt Abrahams: absolutely. These
structures really do help. Yeah,
really do help. And there's no
magic. There's no magic.

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Daniel Nestle: Yeah, you know,
now I we're running up on time
here. I know that, you know,
you've you've been to say you've
been busy is a is an
understatement. That's true. You
know? I mean, it's not like you
have a grad grad student to
teach or book to promote, or
podcast or podcast, Iran and all

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these things. I did want to get
your thoughts on one thing that
yes, is really on my mind, and
certainly is probably on a lot
of people's minds. That's that's
tangential to the book. And that
is,

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do you think this the the
impromptu speaking skill, right,
the skill of speaking on the
spot is in decline, or is
endangered

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by the advent of AI? And I'm
saying this, because AI is a
huge part of what I'm doing
these days, especially
generative AI. And I know a lot
of people are focused on it. So
you know, what? Has it affected
your your thinking on any of
this or the way that you teach
it? Or, you know, do you have a

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vision of the future? Anything?
Really, it's

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an open question.

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Matt Abrahams: I am truly
agnostic on this. I don't know,
I am an optimist in general. So
I do think AI is going to have a
big impact on communication in
our world. I don't think that's
a very unique position. How it
will impact is is interesting to
me. So very early on when AI
first when chat GPT first came

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out that my podcast team, we
were thinking like, we've got to
do something, it's going to
impact communication, what
should we do? And I actually
interviewed it. Now today, that
doesn't sound that interesting
or unique. But this is several
months ago, we actually typed in
responses, got feedback, got it

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got its output, and then put it
through a text to voice
translator. So we actually had a
conversation. Now that's a
feature of the tool, but back
then it wasn't. And the tool
itself provided some interesting
insight. We asked How are you
going to impact communication
and it said that it will make

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many things easier, but it will
never replace human to human
communication. There is a
connection that happens between
people that a tool like
generative AI cannot capture.
And I believe that to be true.
Yeah. Now I personally am using
generative AI in a few ways. So
I encourage my students and I

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encourage anybody listening in
your podcast who wants to get
better at spontaneous speaking,
to type in prompts, that then
returned to you tests or
challenges that you can use to
practice. So here's a great
thing, a job interview at a
certain company say give me five
questions for this role at this

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company and it'll spit out
reasonable questions as soon as
you see one practice answering
great tool, great way to
practice spontaneity. Similarly,
for my non native speakers, non
native English speakers, I
recommend that they use the tool
to help them see other ways of
saying things that they write,

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not to say it's the right way
but to give them other options.
And I as a teacher I use I
believe a lot of the way we
learn is by seeing practical
tactical examples. I create many
examples. In my class, I have
used generative AI to create
more examples, I think more is
better off. And when it comes to

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examples, like I teach, and so I
used to have three now I have
eight chat GPT helped me create
some of those. So I think
there's a lot of potential for
it. But I do have a lot of
concern around veracity, how,
how accurate is the information
around the ability to actually
think through stuff, arguments

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and ideas, rather than just
typing in and seeing what comes
back? So I'm agnostic, but
optimist,

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Daniel Nestle: I'm in much the
same boat. And I wrote down your
use case, because it's, you
know, I sometimes forget how you
can us. First of all, I'm a very
huge proponent of Gen AI I've
been speaking about a lot I am,
you know, it's part of, I
believe it is an it's an
inseparable part of the future

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of communications and a number
in a number of ways. That said,
My biggest worry is that it
hollows out the entry level
skills to the profession, and it
encourages shortcuts. necess
potentially, say to your point
that, you know, the ability to
construct arguments and reason,
get those core skills that you

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need to make those,

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those to, to have

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the foundations that you can
speak on the spot and impromptu
ways. You know, I think that
people need to be a lot more
mindful. So I think mindfulness
is probably probably the only
the way to kind of face it. But
I do appreciate your opinion.
And I know like, you know, I
just wanted to really kind of

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understand more about, about
where you're where you're
thinking, because I think, you
know, and as a way to kind of
put a pin in this whole thing,

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that impromptu speaking, being
able to be on the spot and speak
extemporaneously, you know, at a
meeting in a cocktail party,
even at a funeral as you had in
your book, yeah, you know, these
are absolutely human things
that, you know,

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nothing do, you don't have
until, until, until I guess the
implants take place in your
head, you know, which I hope
don't happen. I'm you know, it's
a very human thing. And, and,
and I think we should embrace
it, and we should love it. And
for that, I would encourage
every single person who is

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listening to this show, to buy
this book, you know, to get on,
get on the think think faster,
talk smarter train, and think
fast talk smart podcast, train,
as as quick as you can. Because,
you know, it's a way to maintain
your humanity to hyperbolized it
a little bit. But I don't think
it's an exaggeration. I think

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it's it's really important. So,
you know, on that note, Matt, do
you have any, any last words
before I, before I kind of wrap
us out?

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Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you
for the opportunity just to chat
with you. I love speaking with a
like minded individual who
really sees the value and
benefit of good things that I'm
talking about. And has applied
them I mean, beautifully, so. So
thank you for that. It all comes
down to this with repetition,

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reflection and feedback, we can
get better at our communication,
especially spontaneous
communication, we have to take
the time to practice, we have to
reflect on what worked and what
didn't work, and we have to get
input and advice and guidance
from trusted others. That's how
we get better. I hope that some

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of the work I do can help people
in their journey. I encourage
people to check out Matt
abrahams.com. I have a whole
bunch of resources there that
are all free. Check out the
book, Think faster, talk
smarter, listening to think
fast, talk smart. And if you're
on LinkedIn, find me. These are

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00:58:28,380 --> 00:58:35,340
all ways that I hope I can
engage with you to help you be a
better, more confident
communicator. That's

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Daniel Nestle: amazing Matt, and
you scoop me a little bit I was
just about to say go find Matt
at Matt abrahams.com Look at
look for him on LinkedIn and
look for you know, there's
there's some other Matt Abrahams
make sure to find the guy that's
at Stanford. That's the that's
the giveaway. And Abraham's

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00:58:49,560 --> 00:59:06,330
underscore Matt on Twixtor X,
whatever you want to call it.
Right? Exactly. You know, but
generally speaking, the websites
the best place to go, there's so
much there, there's so many
resources. Go there. And Matt,
thank you very much for joining
me and for helping me kind of
initiate the second phase, or

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00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:11,490
the next phase of my show. I
really am so grateful to you. So
thanks, please come back again.

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Matt Abrahams: Happy to do so
good. Good luck on everything.
That's next. Thanks.

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00:59:21,660 --> 00:59:38,730
Daniel Nestle: Thanks for taking
the time to listen in on today's
conversation. If you enjoyed it,
please be sure to subscribe
through the podcast player of
your choice. Share with your
friends and colleagues and leave
me a review. Five stars would be
preferred. But it's up to you.
You have ideas for future guests

282
00:59:38,730 --> 00:59:46,050
or you want to be on the show.
Let me know at Dan at trending
communicator.com Thanks again
for listening to the trending
communicator.