Unlocking the Communications Career Cage - with Emily York

1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:56,061
Daniel Nestle: Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. Over the past few years, I've leaned into my role as a communicator working on comms. And when someone talked about me, they might say, you know, Dan the comms guy, you know. But I always thought that came with some risk because I kept my inner marketer close by. See, I had this background in market and I always wanted to think, well, secretly I'm really a marketer posing as a communicator. In my mind's eye, comms and marketing have always been two facets of the same diamond. So when I think about the comms profession and my career within it, I think that's been a differentiator. I mean, it's definitely helped me to see more ways to combine tools and models and methodologies and skills and even people than perhaps your typical communicator.

2
00:00:56,253 --> 00:01:38,537
Daniel Nestle: But maybe it's also been a career blocker. I mean, comms, corporate comms especially, is extremely deep, but tends to be very narrow. For curious explorers, it's all too easy and tempting to go for breadth over depth and over time. For me, I think that meant veering outside of the narrow band of corp comms and broadening my own perspectives and my skills in ways that weren't immediately relevant to my role. That's not to say my companies and my employers were not interested in it just means it wasn't really relevant to me at that time. Really great for me, but not necessarily what my employers cared about. Anyway, the point of all this is that I've been reflecting on my own path because I'm in transition now.

3
00:01:38,721 --> 00:02:21,161
Daniel Nestle: Not in the sense of being between things, not in the sense of, oh, I'm looking for a new job. More like I'm making a huge change from being a corp comms guy in the narrow lane to running my own consultancy. That requires me to be more curious and exploratory. Maybe that means I still have a narrow lane, but maybe the lane is bigger or maybe I'll find different lanes. That's the transition part. There's some questions that still have to be asked and that's the shape of my transition. And I think the future of work for many in the comms profession will be along similar lines. Or will it? Perhaps. My guest today has some thoughts on this. Like many successful communicators, she started off in journalism before making the move over to agency and then corporate communications.

4
00:02:21,313 --> 00:02:52,381
Daniel Nestle: She spent almost eight years at one of my favorite global brands, Beam Suntery before going solo and experiencing her own transition into consulting. Her journey took her forward to a senior communications leadership role at executive search powerhouse Russell Reynolds Associates as their global head of communications. She's passionate about comms, about the nature of work, about a variety of other causes and things. I can't wait to get into all of this with her and hear her thoughts. Please join me in welcoming to the show my friend Emily York. Emily, how are you?

5
00:02:52,413 --> 00:02:53,101
Emily York: Hi, Dan.

6
00:02:53,213 --> 00:02:54,445
Daniel Nestle: What's going on? It's good to see you.

7
00:02:54,485 --> 00:02:56,253
Emily York: Thanks for having me. This is so fun.

8
00:02:56,389 --> 00:03:30,635
Daniel Nestle: I know. And we've known each other now for a few years. I mean, we met at the Page Society, you know, maybe three or four years ago. Definitely sort of edge of pandemic, you know, when were all coming back from the dead. And a lot of. Maybe that was a terrible thing to say, but were all coming back from that sort of weird time that I don't really like to reflect on that much. But. But it was great because it was one of those conferences where. Where just everybody was just so happy to be around each other and be there. And I was so glad to meet you. You know, we shared that. That, oh, we work for these big jap. Big giant Japanese companies.

9
00:03:31,215 --> 00:03:38,967
Daniel Nestle: In your case, it was a joint venture that became this, you know, big, I think, was mostly owned by. By Suntory, right? Was it?

10
00:03:39,071 --> 00:03:40,279
Emily York: Yes, owned by Suntory.

11
00:03:40,327 --> 00:04:24,421
Daniel Nestle: It was. So as an acquisition, but. But, you know, Suntory is definitely one of my favorite Japanese brands. Beam. One of my favorite American brands. And wow, what a marriage in my mind. So, you know, but it was Japanese company, and I was working for licks little at the time. And, you know, before that I was at Mitsubishi. So that whole Japan, like, how do you ride America's comms for a Japanese culture or Japanese company was something we had in common. And, you know, we. We just struck up a good friendship and certainly shared, you know, interest in all things comms from that point forward. And, you know, I'm just so glad that we kept in touch and you're doing some great things now. You're. You're. In my mind, you are. You are a trending communicator.

12
00:04:24,493 --> 00:04:34,345
Daniel Nestle: So, you know, let's get to know you a little bit. Emily, What's. What's the story? What's. If you can give us a quick overview, like, you know, your journey, how you got to where you are.

13
00:04:35,845 --> 00:04:37,549
Emily York: Well, I feel like you already covered it so well.

14
00:04:37,597 --> 00:04:37,845
Daniel Nestle: I did.

15
00:04:37,885 --> 00:04:38,541
Emily York: Thank you for that.

16
00:04:38,613 --> 00:04:39,917
Daniel Nestle: You can just fill in the blanks if you'd like.

17
00:04:39,941 --> 00:05:42,143
Emily York: Yeah, yeah. No, I. I lead global communications at Russell Reynold, which is known as a leading executive search firm. And they are looking at the future of their business as leadership advisors. Because looking for. It takes a trusted relationship to look for a senior executive. But that's an episodic event. Right. And to have a partner like that who knows your business so well and then to send them away and talk, you need someone else eventually seemed a little counterintuitive. So Russell Reynolds is looking at the future as broader in terms of leadership advisory because the marketplace is so uncertain and dynamic and leaders, as we both know, are asked to do a lot of different things. And the marketplace forces are going to change really quickly.

18
00:05:42,269 --> 00:05:42,619
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

19
00:05:42,667 --> 00:06:15,149
Emily York: And that includes what's needed of leaders. But for me, as their, as their communications leader, I have been with them for seven months. I lead internal communications and I'm working on a number of things with the CEO's executive voice. We're looking at how to position our narrative across all of our stakeholders. And it's been a ton of fun. Really great people, very smart and really fun. Lots of interesting challenges.

20
00:06:15,237 --> 00:06:56,493
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds like a huge challenge. It sounds like a huge challenge because, you know, services companies and I know like I worked for Robert half back in the old days, not, you know, same similar industry, different business model than Russell Renz. We always looked at those at the big five. I think it was at the time, maybe still big five, you know, executive search firms as, you know, kind of, you know, the gold standard that. And we, and were sort of playing in the lower ranks in a lot of ways, although literally were like, were. The executive search was really being handled primarily by the big firms like the big consultancies and the contingency lower end.

21
00:06:56,669 --> 00:07:58,545
Daniel Nestle: You know, it's bad to say because we're talking about people, but the junior to middle range kind of roles across different functions were being handled by a variety of large and small recruiting firms. And anyway, I got into that business for a while and I've never really kind of lost interest. It's always been sort of fascinating to me, but it was a challenge because it is a business that is based on. On services and on people, not on products. So, you know, as a communicator that presents its own kind of not dilemma, but it's a storytelling challenge, a differentiation challenge, certainly a branding challenge. It's a B2B situation for the most part. So It's a different set of circumstances than, let's say, a corporate communicator who's working on, you know, CPG goods or something like this. So.

22
00:07:58,925 --> 00:08:00,501
Emily York: And that's one of the funny things. Sorry, go ahead.

23
00:08:00,533 --> 00:08:01,265
Daniel Nestle: No, go ahead.

24
00:08:01,845 --> 00:08:43,395
Emily York: That's one of the funny things about this role at any role, because I think from the outside, corporate job seems like a corporate job. And aren't they all the same? And you're asked to do similar things, but they're really different. And as somebody who started as a journalist and then was at an agency and working with a bunch of different companies, I still didn't get it that a corporate job is not a corporate job. Is not a corporate job. Is not a corporate job. There are vast differences in culture even within industries and structure that lead to very different experiences and nobility and what's asked of people and certainly across industries too.

25
00:08:43,554 --> 00:09:42,737
Emily York: So it's been exciting to change industries and get to learn a lot of new things and a whole bunch of new acronyms when I had already memorized about a thousand of them. I have a thousand more in my head now. And to really think about the. And to think about the role and in a different way, because in my time at Beam Suntory now Suntory Global Spirits, we had a team of three people that was, you know, 14ish when I left. And, you know, starting back at a smaller, you know, with a smaller group, at a company at an earlier stage in its life cycle, there's an opportunity to, I mean, yeah, you're going to get your hands dirty, but there's a real chance to shape the narrative. And it's a very flat structure.

26
00:09:42,801 --> 00:09:56,685
Emily York: So things that the chief communications and public affairs officer was doing at the $5 billion company, we're sitting down and talking about and making it happen. And it's pretty exciting.

27
00:09:58,145 --> 00:10:46,645
Daniel Nestle: I set up at the beginning because the way you're describing that role and the way you're describing coming into a new situation reminds me something I said in the upfront, which is that comms roles tend to be very deep with narrow but. But narrow. Right. So there's a narrow set of the remit is narrow, but the amount of knowledge and the amount of information that you have to. To fulfill your remit is very deep. And I always found that moving from job, like whenever I moved to a new job, it was super exciting because there's this big learning opportunity. You dig deep and you kind of uncover these stories and you uncover things people didn't know about before or they wouldn't connect. But it's sort of a very.

28
00:10:48,145 --> 00:11:03,845
Daniel Nestle: It's very like, kind of internally, or you're working from a fixed base of information in some way. So, like, once you dig deep enough, you know how far, how long before it becomes like, all right, I know all this stuff now. What?

29
00:11:04,985 --> 00:11:26,921
Emily York: Yeah. And when you said that, it sparked so many thoughts and even feelings for me, because both in my old role and things that I felt helped me grow in the old role and things that are exciting me in my new role and things that can ultimately become stoppers, too. Right?

30
00:11:26,993 --> 00:11:27,565
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

31
00:11:27,705 --> 00:12:21,763
Emily York: So getting to my previous role and thinking, all right, here's my lane, here's the job, but here are all these other things, too, that are exciting me that I can. I can learn along the way and skills that I can pick up and ways that I can help and relationships that I can build that ultimately lead into avenues where you can keep growing. Of course, the challenges, as you keep growing, you have to figure out how to Right size, either the load or the directions your brain are going in and how deep you can go when you're spreading out. But I think the other challenge is how you stay inspired, engaged, and constantly questioning the things that you've done. Right. Because it's.

32
00:12:21,959 --> 00:13:00,207
Emily York: It's so easy to come in and say, well, this isn't the way I would do it, and we're gonna do this a different way. And then five years later, not to be the one who's saying, well, this is the way we've always done it. And last time I asked if we could change this, I was told no. So I'm gonna sit here and be crabby about it. You have to. You have to. And this is the thing in comms, too, right? Like, you're gonna have a million ideas, and no matter what your level is in an organization, you're gonna get some yeses, and you're probably gonna get more no's or you're gon. Let's do that later. Let's focus on this thing. And. Yeah, and to hold on to that stuff, not bury it deep inside and let it make you angry.

33
00:13:00,271 --> 00:13:17,607
Emily York: But remember, these are things that I want to get to. And keep a running list in your brain so that you're pushing these things forward, and that's good for you and your development, but also your engagement and your role.

34
00:13:17,711 --> 00:14:03,691
Daniel Nestle: Oh, yeah. In my case, and this wasn't always the case for sure, but on occasion, that would happen. You'd get two, three years in, and you'd say, all right, checked off all these boxes. There's not a lot of interest to go in this particular direction or this particular direction. So how can I find something new or how can I make what I did before exciting? Do I revisit something I did two years ago and say, maybe it's time to take this out of the box and go, well, you know, is this right now? Or maybe there's. There's something I've been thinking about or had written down on in a. In a mind map buried somewhere where I'm like, wait a second. Now's the right time for this. Do I have the patience and the wherewithal to.

35
00:14:03,763 --> 00:14:48,443
Daniel Nestle: And the mindfulness to do that in a role, or do I say, you know what? Look at that big, bright, shiny object over there. That's really cool. Let me see if I can bring that into comms, because if I don't bring that into comms, we're dead in the water, and I have to communicate, convince everybody that's the case, or else I'm going to be bored. Right? So it's this fine balance. This is the internal dialogue. And, you know, my. My. My former. My former team at Lixel would certainly attest to these. To. Every time I'd come back from a conference, it'd be like, okay, what's. What's next? What are we gonna. What are we gonna be looking at next? That we have to absolutely do. Right. To survive. And that always thrilled me to do that. And then, you know, you have to.

36
00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:59,735
Daniel Nestle: You have to kind of get your feet back on reality sometimes, you know, And I think that's a struggle in the comms for senior comms professionals who are trying to enhance their careers.

37
00:15:00,435 --> 00:15:30,325
Emily York: Well, and you're not. And nobody's gonna. Nobody can do those things all the time. Everybody. Everybody's gonna have their days when. Or weeks or months where, you know, we're just getting through this and we'll get back to being inspired after the holidays or whatever it is. But it's. It's finding that way to keep pushing yourself. And when you can't. Understanding that's. That's the telltale sign that you really need to. Need a reset.

38
00:15:30,445 --> 00:16:09,917
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, that sign that you need to reset. I like the way you put that, you know, because as you get on in your career, or even if it's. Even if. Wherever. Whatever level you're at, you know, to entry mid or senior, but. But certainly at the senior level, you know, you reach a point where it's difficult to See where you're going, right? Or it's. Or it might be really clear. It might be like, you know, this is as high as I can get. This is as far as I can get. There's no further. There's no further I can go here. And, you know, that's. That's certainly one thing that you need to keep in mind in your career. You might be. You might like that. You might like where you've landed and be perfectly happy. As long as you don't become.

39
00:16:10,021 --> 00:16:38,517
Daniel Nestle: As long as you don't become complacent, you know, by all means, continue with that. But a lot of folks, I think, feel like comms, and it's not only comms, but I think it's definitely more. It's a bigger issue in the comms world where. And I've heard this before, where they see communications as like a cage, you know, terrible thing to say. It's a very big. It's a very big thing.

40
00:16:38,541 --> 00:16:40,885
Emily York: Kind of perfect. Yeah, right.

41
00:16:40,965 --> 00:17:17,637
Daniel Nestle: But, like, the thing is, like, it's just. It's a cage because you try to go across to, you know, what you're. If you're in a big company, you see stuff happening over in marketing, and you're like, you know what? That actually is something I'd be interested in. And maybe you can. Maybe you can develop your career, talk to the right people, you know, have long conversations with your management teams and with your managers, your supervisors, and start to kind of say, look, I'm interested in that. Can you help me get there? You know, if that's. If that's a thing that the company is. That's in the company's interest, they will. But, you know, for the most part, though, it's.

42
00:17:17,781 --> 00:17:53,955
Daniel Nestle: If you want to go over into a marketing role and you're in comms, or if you want to, you know, spread over into, you know, hey, who knows, digital or some other realm. It's very difficult to get out of that. Out of that comms function now, that comms label, et cetera. And it's very easy to start feeling hemmed in. I don't know. Have you experienced that? Is that something that you've seen or, you know, what do you think is a good approach when that sort of thing starts to happen?

43
00:17:54,375 --> 00:18:39,271
Emily York: I've definitely seen that. And I'm trying to think of the people I know who have made changes at different stages in their careers and what separates them. I think early on, obviously, there are a lot more opportunities, and that's that moment where when you're in your 20s and you've landed this great job with benefits. The idea that may even be the hardest time to say, am I going to give this up and figure out how I'm going to pay rent so that I can make this transition now? But then it's probably easier to get that job.

44
00:18:39,423 --> 00:18:40,115
Daniel Nestle: Right.

45
00:18:40,935 --> 00:19:20,151
Emily York: Mid level or sort of junior to mid level. I've seen people and this is what I did from, you know, I actually started after college. I got a PR job which way back then. If you had worked in pr, journalism had rules back then that if you had the stain of PR on you needed. Because I had freelanced, I had done all this work, but I needed to go to grad school to get the credentials right to cleanse so I could be. I was going to say cleansed. So yes, to cleanse myself before I could get a journalism job.

46
00:19:20,223 --> 00:19:20,957
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

47
00:19:21,151 --> 00:20:29,287
Emily York: And that's not the case anymore. But I've seen people who have started in comms or PR and had interest in digital marketing, the business side, either leave to go to school or do night school. And it's a real accelerator at that stage later on. I think it is the senior people who have made some of those business side shifts have done it more through their relationships and their teaming and their collaboration. People who have so excelled in their career across all the areas of comms and developed really deep relationships with partners, whether that is your vendors or your executives. And you develop this really strategic thought partnership type relationships where those people can then see the value of you in other areas of the business.

48
00:20:29,431 --> 00:20:30,983
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, I just.

49
00:20:31,039 --> 00:21:02,515
Emily York: So I think, and I mean that's no one size fits all approach. But that's been the common thread for the people who've made some of those changes, I think. But generally speaking, you get this problem and it's sort of a pyramid. So you've got a bunch of people who come into comms and there's this one person who can run the function. So yeah. Do you just have to wait for that person to retire or get fired or move to the holding company role or.

50
00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:52,175
Daniel Nestle: It's tough. Yeah. Of course there's all kinds of gallows humor that goes on inside corporate teams and you're just waiting for that bus to arrive a little bit early, for example. But we've all been in situations where you know that you've hit this, the ceiling on your team and then you get, you always get the talk from your manager, from your executives, like, well, now is the time to. If you can't, you Know, if. If there's no, like, upward mobility, think about horizontal mobility. Think about expanding your skill set, going to more, you know, learning, putting. Let's see what you can bring in. And then you do this, right, because we all do this. And that's where you start to discover, wait a second. I like this part of comms better. I like this part of marketing better, whatever it is.

51
00:21:52,755 --> 00:22:27,609
Daniel Nestle: And then you're like, okay, I'm doing all this. Can I try this project out? Or can I, you know, can you give me a little bit of rope, really, so that I could try out a new. A new thing that I learned? Or, you know, say, oh, there's this really cool stuff called Comtech. I think that we need to build this out. You know, what can we do? And, you know, for the most part, when you have a case behind it and when you're able to kind of get passionate behind it and make again, you need to make a case. It's not going to affect my current role. In fact, it's going to add more to it and do XYZ for the team and XYZ for the company.

52
00:22:27,657 --> 00:22:47,765
Daniel Nestle: More importantly, nine times out of 10, your leadership is going to go, hey, run with it. Go for it. But then you do, and it works. And you're like, all right, I went with you. Now what? Show me the money or exchange my role. And that's where you start to run into some, I'll just call them issues where.

53
00:22:47,805 --> 00:22:48,421
Emily York: Speed bumps.

54
00:22:48,493 --> 00:23:04,669
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, some speed bumps. Where, you know, it's either. It's much harder, I think, in a. In a, ironically, in a larger corporation than in a smaller one to kind of adjust your role because, you know, you're in a system and there's a.

55
00:23:04,717 --> 00:23:07,093
Emily York: Specific thing that is needed of you.

56
00:23:07,229 --> 00:23:47,175
Daniel Nestle: Yeah. Or, you know, you change the role and then you have. Okay, now it's got to go to HR for adjustment, and you have to check the compensation and see. Okay, well, I don't know what the midpoint on this is for this marketplace, because there's no such similar role. And it becomes a big thing and you end up being kind of drowned in paper. And that happens sometimes. It's a trade off for working at a large company. But that's one of the signs, I think, when you're at this kind of point where you're doing all these different things and you're enjoying things and you're actually adding value or you're adding knowledge or both. Well, usually it's both. And then, you know, you Realize you've come to this kind of point.

57
00:23:47,335 --> 00:24:29,625
Daniel Nestle: It's one of those signs where you're like, maybe I need to be looking around or maybe I need to make a pivot or a change. Right. You know, I think. I think it's. It's important for people to recognize when, you know, when it's time to start having that deeper discussion with yourself or with your. With your friends or just, you know, with your. With your coach or your therapist. You know, you've had this happen to you. So when you went through, you know, when you knew, it was like, you know, what are the things that. That were kind of, if you're at liberty to talk about, that we're going through, you know, that were the signs that were like, hey, maybe it's time to. To make a move and, you know, guiding you towards your transition.

58
00:24:31,285 --> 00:25:21,475
Emily York: Well, I think, you know, you. There are a lot of good things that you said, and I want to remember all of them. I think, you know, you talk about hitting speed bumps, and I think sometimes in companies, whether it's a mix of, maybe you get complacent, maybe. Maybe the needs of your role have changed, maybe the structure of the department is changing. Maybe the needs of that department, given where the company is going, has changed, and all of this stuff evolves. And we're evolving all the time, and sometimes we're just going to evolve in different ways. Yeah, and sometimes you can.

59
00:25:21,935 --> 00:25:42,277
Emily York: Sometimes you can have loved a job and a place so much that you can be aware of both things and still not be fully committed to leaving, because it can feel like organizations have given you so much, and why would you not try to stick around as long as possible?

60
00:25:42,381 --> 00:25:43,065
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

61
00:25:44,925 --> 00:26:38,679
Emily York: I had a situation with now Suntory Global Spirits, where they had completed their global headquarters, move to New York. And I've been in Chicago now almost 20 years, which is unbelievable. And I was at the perfectly wrong time for my kids to move. And it was probably a situation like that, too, where I'd been thinking, what is the next thing? And Suntory Spirits now had been within 10 years of having merged. The function was changing, the leadership was changing, and it was the right time to separate from the company. And it was the first time that I'd ever had off. You were just had.

62
00:26:38,807 --> 00:27:01,163
Emily York: That I hadn't just had a child or something, that I was really off work for a while and got some time to think about what I like to do, what value I think I bring to an organization, give consulting a shot, and also think about those other things in Life that I hadn't in a long time.

63
00:27:01,259 --> 00:27:01,987
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

64
00:27:02,171 --> 00:27:28,107
Emily York: Like really having actual fun with my kids and being present. And what, volunteer wise, did I want to be doing and how do I, how did I want to be showing up in that? And what, what does that do both for my professional credibility in my relationships and networking and what does that give me in terms of skills that I can bring back to an organization? And it was really, really beneficial.

65
00:27:28,291 --> 00:28:23,735
Daniel Nestle: You know, it's interesting because a lot of times it's these externalities, right, that push you or that change your thinking or that open up new doors or close old ones. You know, a lot of us, broadly speaking, humans, you know, we tend to think that the future is going to go in a certain way based on the exact current situation we're in and everything that's led up to it. Right. Well, frankly, we don't have any other data from which to predict a future, so it makes sense that we would think that way. But the fault in that or the kind of fallacy in that in some ways is nothing is a straight line. And you're talking about a straight line trajectory. You think, okay, three steps gonna be like this and five steps is gonna be like this.

66
00:28:23,895 --> 00:29:03,337
Daniel Nestle: But then, okay, a merger happens or, you know, somebody else leaves the company or you get married or whatever it is, right? Yeah, sometimes terrible things, but other things happen that change your trajectory and change the course. Maybe it's a new technology that comes out that you're really interested and good at that changes the direction of your thinking in your career or that opens up, unlocks some ideas in your head. And I'm a little autobiographical there maybe, but it's any number of things. And I think when all those things converge, it's like, okay, now is the time to pivot. Sometimes not your choice.

67
00:29:03,521 --> 00:29:04,245
Emily York: Right.

68
00:29:04,945 --> 00:29:44,765
Daniel Nestle: But even then, even when it's like you get laid off or something, I mean, most people who are in that situation kind of see it coming. Like, you know, it's happening, you know, it's a danger, you know, that it could be a possibility for them. You know, if you're in a very senior role, especially, you know, you have to be reading the tea leaves to some extent, but still, I mean, it's not, it doesn't take the shock out of it, but it's still like, you know, you would have to, that would have had to have been influencing your thinking in some way. Unless you're trying to whistle past the graveyard, you know, you're just, you Know, going about your daily business, hoping it all go away.

69
00:29:45,185 --> 00:30:27,195
Daniel Nestle: But like, I know that, you know, you see the writing on the wall and you know what, maybe it's time for me to beef up my skills in this particular direction or start making connections in this way or you know, get out there and network, whatever it is. The point is that all those things just change that kind of pivot direction. Like how, where are you going to pivot to? What are you going to pivot at all? Are you going to just stay on the same course but try to try in a different location? Right. I think, you know, in your case, you know, you had a, like almost textbook great reason to make an exit in a good way from an organization. But it's what happened next.

70
00:30:27,235 --> 00:31:12,485
Daniel Nestle: Like it's how you decided what to pursue this and where you landed that period of time, that transition, something David Armano would call your TBD period. When you're CEO of TBD of Emily York. That is an interesting, I think, thing to think about right now for all of us. And you know, how did you handle that? You said that you had some time to think and time to relax, but then you decided to pivot into, you know, consulting, which is kind of like what most of us do. Right. When you're in comms, you're like, well, maybe I'll do consulting for a while. I'm doing air quotes for people who can't see it.

71
00:31:13,265 --> 00:31:14,513
Emily York: They're great air quotes.

72
00:31:14,609 --> 00:31:27,545
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I mean like, what was your kind of process there and how did you decide, A, how did you decide that's what you want to do and then B, how did you decide that's what you didn't want to do anymore?

73
00:31:29,885 --> 00:32:28,805
Emily York: You ask such great questions. Well, I think if you had my husband on with me, he would tell you that I didn't take any time off and that I was immediately thinking about what the next thing was. And he's never really wrong. But I think the way I looked at it was if I've got six months or a year of not having a full time job or if it winds up, or if this winds up being my life and I'm going to consult for from now on, what are the pieces of my life that are going to make me and make me the best. Just sounds like I'm sounding like a five year old, but that are going to make me happy and effective and giving back to my family and my Friends and my children.

74
00:32:28,965 --> 00:33:35,375
Emily York: And I looked at personal relationships that I hadn't had enough time for before and ways that I could help out at my kids, schools. And one board that I was on, I joined the executive committee and had a bigger. I've had a bigger role for the last couple of years. And I joined a junior board at a bigger organization here in Chicago. And that was really exciting to just use my brain in different ways and give myself more time to really. And I should say as a header. So there was the personal piece and taking care of myself and thinking about volunteerism and philanthropy and what was the research that was missing? I think you and I had this conversation at the time because you were really kind and reaching right out to me when I left.

75
00:33:36,285 --> 00:34:33,455
Emily York: What are the things as this media expert, as I've been billing myself all these years, I got so. And it started with COVID I mean, I was always busy, but I was so busy with all of the things with the job and everything that surrounded it that I wasn't actually keeping up with the evolution of media and how people are using it and how the influence has changed. And I was really. I was really behind on that stuff. And that was an area where I felt, you know, I don't know if it would have totally changed the way I approached my role, but I probably would have thought about it differently and I would have had more headspace going into my job every day. And then there was. And this is actually where I probably spent the most time.

76
00:34:33,495 --> 00:35:01,603
Emily York: I did a whole lot of networking. I called emailed or LinkedIn, basically everybody I knew. And I had coffees and lunches. And then I got introduced to people who introduced me to people. I was so busy. I had a hard time keeping track of my calendar because I realized how outlook had become the frame of my. Of my life.

77
00:35:01,739 --> 00:35:02,455
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

78
00:35:03,595 --> 00:35:56,213
Emily York: And I learned a lot. And I heard a lot of different things from a lot of people who had been in transition. And just understanding how common that is because I'd not been in that situation before. It's almost. There's. I still see people who. I met a woman at a networking event this week. And I'm kind of coaching a friend of mine through this right now where they don't even want to say the word because it feels as they haven't been in between jobs before. And it just is so uncomfortable the word being transition. In transition. And I'm not worth a company right now because it's just. It's not part of our culture to necessarily accept that and it's such a common thing. I mean, it's almost universal.

79
00:35:56,389 --> 00:35:56,957
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

80
00:35:57,061 --> 00:36:11,381
Emily York: That at some point, especially if you have the kind of career that most people set out to, that this is a thing. One, it's a thing that's going to happen for whatever reason. And it is, and it is survivable. And sometimes things work out better.

81
00:36:11,573 --> 00:37:05,575
Daniel Nestle: They usually do from what I'm told. Or maybe people are just saying that to make me feel better, but they usually, they usually do work out better. And it's interesting, I think it dovetails a little with something you just said. Talking about being a media expert, basically being really good at your job and then seeing that while you've been good at your job. I mean, let's think of it. Maybe it's good to think of analogy here. Your job is like you're palling the boat, canoe down the river, right. And things are. The river's taking you to a certain point, but then the river starts to go faster under your boat. And you know, the things that are, that you've known have been floating around you are now floating way ahead of you.

82
00:37:06,675 --> 00:37:43,389
Daniel Nestle: So everything's floating by or rushing by, but you're still really good at keeping the boat solid and keeping it, you know, river worthy, you know, stopping it from capsizing. But basically, you know, you're doing your job right. Got powerful rowing arms and you're just doing, going through. But at some point, you know, you're like, wait a second, this is totally different water now. So where do you kind of make, how do you reconcile that? When you, when you, when it hits you know, and sometimes I suppose it doesn't hit you until you leave the roller.

83
00:37:43,437 --> 00:38:02,145
Daniel Nestle: So you like, you parked the boat or you is parking the boat thing, you dock the boat, you beach it, whatever you do, you stop the boat, you get out and then you know, that's when you need to take stock, I suppose, and figure out, wow, what's, what has passed me by. So how do you reconcile that, keeping up with things and doing a good job?

84
00:38:04,085 --> 00:38:54,743
Emily York: I think that's another great question, something that I feel like I learned between Covid and rowing really hard for a long time and then getting a coach, which I really recommend, something that I do now and I hope I will keep doing this is, I mean, and sometimes, make no mistake, you're going to have to roll really hard. And there are times I'm a very skilled procrastinator, so I will have weekends or mornings that I start working at 5, because for some reason my brain works really well at that time and I'm banging things out because it is a busy time and there's a lot of work to do.

85
00:38:54,839 --> 00:39:20,025
Emily York: But when you're rowing really hard for a long time, and it's not just one thing, I think you really, you owe it to yourself and you owe it to your company to take a breath and say, there's either we're doing something wrong here or we just need to change tech.

86
00:39:20,145 --> 00:39:20,845
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

87
00:39:21,145 --> 00:39:56,845
Emily York: Because you're wearing yourself out and it is going to degrade the work. It's eventually going to degrade the work that you do and your engagement. And as a leader, you really, whether you are a leader of people, a leader within your organization, if you're part of a leadership team, it changes you rather than radiating energy and excitement and enthusiasm. And how are we going to collaboratively solve this problem to becoming a sponge? Like, I don't care anymore. Rowing too hard.

88
00:39:57,225 --> 00:40:07,161
Daniel Nestle: That's. It's a, That's a great point. And some people call it burnout, or maybe it's complacency. It's hard to say it's complacency when you're working so hard.

89
00:40:07,193 --> 00:40:07,361
Emily York: Right.

90
00:40:07,393 --> 00:40:54,993
Daniel Nestle: I mean, you're working hard. I'm not being complacent. But in some senses, you know, if you're not aware of the water passing you by, it's not necessarily on you. I mean, it. You know, there's a lot of things that are keeping you from looking down. But at some point you gotta, you have to look around you and especially as you get, I think, more advanced in your career, because as you said, this happens to everyone. Like all of this can happen to everyone. And I look around now at. Because now I've been out of the corporate world for all of six months, but I've been doing exactly what you said, actually meeting with tons and tons of people, letting my calendar rule my life in a lot of ways and starting to do some real meaningful and earning work as well.

91
00:40:55,089 --> 00:40:55,833
Daniel Nestle: So things are starting to.

92
00:40:55,889 --> 00:40:57,001
Emily York: Congratulations.

93
00:40:57,193 --> 00:41:51,923
Daniel Nestle: But apart from that. So things happen, right? That's the thing. You do the work and you get the reward. But the main thing is that keeping on top of everything that's going on around you. If it's AI. Hey, you really should be looking at this. If it's martech. If it's, you know, a socioeconomic trend that is Going to be affecting the universe. Learn what that is. You know, read some books for crying out, do something. But you have to keep that going. Otherwise you as a comms person especially, it's easy to think that in that narrow and deep well in which you have survived and thrived and maybe even risen up to the top, that's all the water that there is. But in fact, you know, at some point that well is going to run dry. I'm mixing so many metaphors, but that's.

94
00:41:51,979 --> 00:41:53,683
Emily York: But they're very nice.

95
00:41:53,779 --> 00:42:28,575
Daniel Nestle: But you know, like that's going to run dry. So you know, when you do decide or when you, when you, when destiny comes a knock in and you know, you have to make that change. You know, I, I mean, how do you then look at the future of not only your own career, but of comms around you or whatever, wherever you want to go? Because that's the other thing about a pivot is you have the chance now to make that jump over into another. Discipline might be harder, but there's no like structure holding you back from doing it.

96
00:42:29,715 --> 00:43:09,985
Daniel Nestle: But it's, I'm just thinking like how, what should a future minded, like person who's just been, who has either by on purpose or through, you know, externalities now finds themselves having to pivot, having to transition or in their transition, like what is that future role look like for that person? What are they, what should they be looking at? You know, and starting out consulting and then moving into a corporate role or just looking at corporate roles or. I don't know, I mean, I don't know what the answer. I think it's an individual thing. But, but what do you think?

97
00:43:10,725 --> 00:44:00,755
Emily York: I mean, I do too. I'll lead with the individual thing and then I'll give a concrete answer. So I'll completely contradict myself within the course of the next three minutes. But because I have seen a variety of people be successful doing really different things. And this was the basis of the coaching that I got. And at the time it was a little frustrating because I was really burnt out and crabby. So the idea, like, oh, I just need to follow my passion, like, what are you talking about? Who does that? But when I see people who embrace it and they look at their job and who they are and what makes them like, really, you know, here I am.

98
00:44:01,195 --> 00:45:12,879
Emily York: Go to the go to what brings you joy and then you really are giving more to your organization and that or whatever or your Next role or your next career. Because I do think that if you go in those directions, then you are going to be more passionate, you are going to be more energetic, you are going to be that radiant person in the room that gives everybody else energy and optimism and fresh perspectives. Fresh perspective. Now, I think there are some concrete things that I have seen, certainly to your point, being aware of the opportunities that technology brings, staying abreast of social media is almost a dinosaur at this point. But, but looking at how, as a comms person, how people are consuming, how do people consume content? Talk to your friends and relatives, your grandparents.

99
00:45:12,927 --> 00:45:28,627
Emily York: I mean, these are all consumers of content and they are all potential customers for various future roles of yours. And it is fascinating to hear people's perspectives on what is authentic and what's not.

100
00:45:28,731 --> 00:45:29,415
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

101
00:45:29,715 --> 00:46:25,327
Emily York: So being a student of communications and media and PR and messaging in your life and certainly AI and what it can do for the profession and is going to do for the profession, Right? Yeah. It's not if, it's when, it's how. And how are you going to embrace it and learn about it and try it out without, you know, responsibly? This is the piece that I'm thinking and learning about now is what is the responsible use of AI? But these are all things you have to be. You have to be ready for and thinking about all the time. Because that finish line for whatever your ultimate arrival, if there is such a thing or what your next role is, that finish line is just going to keep moving.

102
00:46:25,471 --> 00:46:26,063
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

103
00:46:26,199 --> 00:47:16,385
Emily York: And we have to. You have to just know that. And it's easy for me to say at this stage in my life, but you have to know it and accept it and not get too hung up on that or upset about it when it happens. The other thing I'll say that is incredibly important is those soft skills because with the rise of technology and AI shouldn't really separate them. But I think of them differently. The contributions that we humans are going to be able to make are really in the soft skills and how we make people feel and how we sell those ideas and how we think strategically and pull things together and bring groups of people together and solve problems.

104
00:47:17,805 --> 00:47:38,145
Emily York: I mean, I was putting together my plan for next year and looking at the needs of the function against the people we have. And we are going to have to use our people for the strategic frame. And then we're going to need to use AI for the rest.

105
00:47:38,445 --> 00:47:40,413
Daniel Nestle: Yeah. Yeah.

106
00:47:40,509 --> 00:48:15,265
Emily York: And if you can't, you've got to be able to do that piece yeah, you have to be able to, you need to be a strategic thought partner to your clients, whether that is your agency or the agency you're working at, or your department heads that you're supporting at an organization. These are all relationships that you need to be thinking really seriously and creatively about.

107
00:48:15,425 --> 00:49:09,569
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, I think you've really illustrated a very broad picture of I think, the kind of natural ambiguity that is in front of us as we kind of try to navigate where we're going with our careers or with our next role and trying to evaluate what we want to do. And you know, it's interesting because the soft skills conversation does come up a lot and you know, listeners will know that we've spent a few episodes really talking about the future of work. And not necessarily all in a row, but several of the people I'm speaking to, these great communicators like you, Emily early, just thinking about what is that, you know, what is the future of work? And you even just kind of described in very real terms for a lot of corporations and organizations will be exactly like this.

108
00:49:09,617 --> 00:50:06,685
Daniel Nestle: Where the humans are going to be, they're going to need to be the strategic frame, the strategic guidance, the responsible, who decides what's responsible, use of xyz, of AI or whatever. Whereas the tasks, a lot of the tasks just to fulfill what you need to do, you have to delegate to AI and perhaps other technologies. And once automation comes in and agents come in and everything like this, it's going to continue and there's more and more. It's just going to get different, more uncertain for us. That doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. It just means it's very difficult to say what your job is going to look like in five minutes. But the core of that human side, okay, somebody really needs to be on top of this and saying how does it connect to strategy?

109
00:50:06,725 --> 00:51:05,633
Daniel Nestle: How do we maintain what's good for the company? How do we maintain what's good for our stakeholders, our investors, our everything is I think, an indispensable and will continue to be indispensable for our profession. Especially if we want to be those, like build those relationships and be trusted advisors and partners to our clients and our internal stakeholders and all of that. I was also thinking as you were talking is like, you know, if you're looking at, you know, a year long plan and just trying to figure out how to enact strategy, there's so much change that's happening all the time, even in media. You know, you said it yourself, talking about how, and I think that spurred our conversation about, you know, the river and the boat and the water and all that nonsense.

110
00:51:05,769 --> 00:51:49,381
Daniel Nestle: But like, if you're in media, for example, if that's your course, if that's your core area of expertise, you know, clearly you're paying, you should be paying attention, saying, well, you know, is it appropriate to be focusing this much time on media in my company? Is it appropriate to be spending this much money? Right. Media, trusted Media is at 31% lower than Congress. What is, you know, according to Gallup, what does that mean for my, for, for my particular emphasis on this? Or does media mean something different now? I think the answer is the last thing. Media means something different now and we have to approach it differently. But to be able to make those calls and to be able to understand that's something that only people can do, I think. Right, right.

111
00:51:49,453 --> 00:52:01,989
Emily York: Because you plug something into whatever you get out of AI has to start with an initial set of principles. Right?

112
00:52:02,117 --> 00:52:02,613
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

113
00:52:02,709 --> 00:52:05,505
Emily York: And if you're not evolving that yourself.

114
00:52:07,325 --> 00:52:08,209
Daniel Nestle: It'S.

115
00:52:08,397 --> 00:52:10,753
Emily York: Then you're not anywhere.

116
00:52:10,849 --> 00:53:03,975
Daniel Nestle: Well, right. And then you just might as well have, you know, have a untrained, just anybody come in and tell AI what to do and, or, you know, and leave it to chance, you know, and watch how fast it fails. You know, watch how fast all of your content becomes dull and all of your roles kind of go like, what? This is terrible. You start to become a fixer rather than a creator. And it's, you know, you don't want to go down that road. But the good news is that we are, I think, focusing on that human side where really focus in on that critical thinking, on your ability to write, on your ability to kind of get that knowledge deep and wide. And then there's no AI that can operate without you.

117
00:53:04,455 --> 00:53:21,959
Daniel Nestle: You know, somebody out there is going to say, agents are coming. Yeah, fine, you know, agents are coming. That's different. You still need somebody to manage them. And that's something that. Or, you know, until Skynet or whatever happens.

118
00:53:22,127 --> 00:53:25,071
Emily York: But you get extra points for mentioning Skynet.

119
00:53:25,143 --> 00:54:24,491
Daniel Nestle: There's always so much happening. No, I am bullish and optimistic about AI in the future, as people will know. But it doesn't mean that we should just sit back and accept everything, because like I said earlier, you can't predict the future based on what has happened up until now. But it's the only way we can predict. It's just, it's a fool's, errand, so you have to, at least in my mind, I think that humanity writ large has always been quite good at innovation and you know, survival and dealing with disruption and sometimes it's a little pain for a while, but eventually, you know, it all kind of the trajectory of history, of humanity, especially here in the US is one of extreme progress and wealth. You know, even comparing to a hundred years ago, it's ridiculous how much better our lives are.

120
00:54:24,523 --> 00:55:10,965
Daniel Nestle: Regardless of all the. Whatever you're thinking about, whatever happened in politics, it's still where it's important to take stock of. Well, it's really not as bad as we think it is. All things being equal. With all that in mind. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to wax poetic there for a minute, but I was just thinking if we wrap it all, if we put all that stuff together, then what does that employee of the future, what is that kind of, you know, that future successful comms leader or comms middle mid career person or whatever. Like what do they look like? What's that kind of package to you?

121
00:55:11,125 --> 00:55:21,425
Emily York: Well, with the huge caveat that the market is going to remain dynamic and everything's going to change and the finish line is going to keep moving.

122
00:55:21,985 --> 00:55:24,885
Daniel Nestle: Said can't predict the future. I'm asking you to predict the future.

123
00:55:25,865 --> 00:56:32,335
Emily York: But I am only too happy to try. Selfishly, as a former journalist, I'm going to say that I think a top communicator who can write at a high level is always going to be valuable. Now I think the role of AI in drafting is going to become increasingly important. I don't think for a while anyway that there's going to be a substitute for a strong writer. And so I would still encourage aspiring communications professionals to really focus on that and building those skills because I have found them to be a differentiator even in senior roles. I think certainly staying abreast of technology is going to be really important and having a point of view about different kinds of tech and how you use it in comms is going to be really important.

124
00:56:32,675 --> 00:57:05,745
Emily York: And having not just a knowledge of, but an affinity for measurement and analysis. And I guess I take that one step further because this, I think is also a differentiator. What are the numbers? What do they tell you? And then what's the recommendation? Because you have to. I've seen breakdowns in that journey.

125
00:57:06,145 --> 00:57:54,865
Daniel Nestle: I saw a post today actually on LinkedIn and we're recording this, by the way, on a Friday after a particularly crazy week in the US but on November 8th actually today there was a post from Chris Penn and he reminded, at least it reminded me of basically those three questions. What? So what now what? What's the number? So what does it mean now? What do we do? And I think it's amazing how many people or how many professionals, how many comms people, it's not just comms, but get through their career or get to a certain point in their career and cannot answer those three questions if they see a chart or if they see data or if they see a page full of insights.

126
00:57:55,165 --> 00:58:31,261
Emily York: Yeah. And I have a thought about that. There's one thing that I didn't reinforce with the comms professional of the future that with those skills, I'll say again that the soft skills are going to be really important because in this AI future having that ability to build relationships and trust across an organization or from job to job or in your network is going to be a differentiator. And I think it is a challenge, especially for Gen Z having been, you know, affected by Covid growing up.

127
00:58:31,413 --> 00:58:31,797
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

128
00:58:31,861 --> 00:59:37,675
Emily York: But I think to go back to your other point, sorry. I feel like Al Gore back in his presidential debates, kind of all over the guy all over the road, totally dating myself. But it's that difference. It's treating either data or feedback as information rather than marching orders. So if somebody says I'm getting feedback on my microphone. If somebody says, if somebody says I'm trying to. Not thinking of an example. If you get a complaint that is, oh, this room is too hot or you know, these meetings are too early or whatever. Sometimes the, sometimes the complaint or the data is information that actually tells you something else. Yes, that this. So this is how this person is feeling. This does not mean I need to cool down the room or move the meeting back an hour.

129
00:59:38,055 --> 01:00:40,875
Emily York: This person may be upset because the organization has not been understanding of global time zones and that's affecting engagement. Or this person wants to know where, why they can't find the org chart or this person wants to know why there is. These are very tactical examples. But I think that's the point that I don't know when people have left this company. And I don't know because you're not telling me on purpose or that's what they think. I can't find this information. Why can I not find this information? Maybe. And in a vacuum. So it's looking at, in a vacuum, people lose trust, people lose engagement. Seeing things like, I don't know where these things are. I'm really upset that I can't find this information. Doesn't necessarily mean let's go post that, which you probably should. But what is the underlying issue?

130
01:00:41,615 --> 01:00:43,555
Emily York: And let's think about that.

131
01:00:45,615 --> 01:01:47,519
Daniel Nestle: You're echoing the words, some of the things that have been said right here on this very show by some other leaders like Deirdre Breckenridge, talking about how you build influence, how you create influence, how you become more confident and more concise and clear. And there's a couple of other Cs there. And she really leans into empathy in a lot of ways. And that also brings to mind. And what you're just saying brings to mind forensic listening, which is almost exactly what you were describing, where what you're hearing and seeing is not what. Is not what the meaning is. So it behooves us as if you're in a leadership position or if you're the person that's really trying to manage or to make decisions. What is the actual question that's being asked? What is the actual motivation behind that?

132
01:01:47,567 --> 01:02:30,793
Daniel Nestle: And it's not something that you can necessarily discern on the spot. Right? There are, there are ways and techniques, models that you can follow to sort of listen to the way that people talk. What are they saying? And then really get down into, okay, what are their motivations? What is the reason that they're talking about this? You know, what don't you know, what just happened in their life? You know, there's a lot of things that can be causing somebody to say, I'm just too hot in this room. You know, it sounds like nothing, but it's something, you know, now if somebody is like, you know this person for years and you know that they're like a complainer about temperature and they come in and say it's hot in the room, then you know, it's a different story.

133
01:02:30,849 --> 01:02:31,209
Emily York: Right?

134
01:02:31,297 --> 01:03:16,611
Daniel Nestle: But, you know, but generally speaking, right. So very like. And I think you're right that those are the things that doesn't, like, I think those will come into sharper focus, more important in the age of AI, especially as. And especially as Gen Z comes up where, you know, different. Different ways of thinking, different mindsets, different motivations that we all have to really be on top of. And, you know, that's something that AI isn't going to do for us. So it's weird. It's. I think the whole, what we're saying here is just know a lot of stuff and you'll be all right. But yeah, stay on top of things. AI is one of those things, I think, really being on top of the future of our Channels. You said this earlier.

135
01:03:16,643 --> 01:04:06,363
Daniel Nestle: This is the other thing I wanted to point out about something you said is talking about the way that people consume content. I think a lot of. A lot of us in this profession sort of outsource that to our marketing or our insights teams or some. You know, it's in your interest to understand how your audiences are reacting to your content, but also where they are in the first place. And understanding that in this fractured world, they may be in 500 different places, then understanding by looking at data, which of those 500 places should you be focusing on? Because you don't have. Because time is the only thing that's. Time and money are the things that you cannot necessarily play around with. So, all right, I only have this much time of the day.

136
01:04:06,379 --> 01:04:32,105
Daniel Nestle: I only have this much money to create something, and it's only appropriate for 50 uses. What 50 of those 500 channels are the ones that I should be looking at. This is something that you just can't, you know, you can't just wave a magic wand. So it's getting more and more fractured, and there's things that you can do to figure all that stuff out, but critically important, I think. And anyway, I agree with you for. With everything you're saying. Of course, Emily. And, you know, I.

137
01:04:32,145 --> 01:04:33,805
Emily York: Of course, of course.

138
01:04:34,425 --> 01:04:36,289
Daniel Nestle: You know, But I think it's. Yeah, go on.

139
01:04:36,337 --> 01:05:32,895
Emily York: So I think you're. And you're right. I mean, we need agencies and we need experts in our lives to show us the things that we don't know about. I'm such a visual and tactile learner that I also. I can't travel the world all the time, so I need to. Certainly need to have people telling me how things are working in other continents, because I know that varies a lot, too. But when I can see it and touch it and talk to somebody who's using it and hearing about why, many times I'll be really concerned about the future of any form of media. I may come away very scared, but it'll also tell me things that I need to know about how to package what I'm creating for the consumers that are out there.

140
01:05:33,015 --> 01:06:00,773
Daniel Nestle: For sure. For sure. I could keep talking about this, and I know you could, too, but sadly we can't, because we're about. We're back. We've been talking for over an hour. Can you believe it? I can't believe it. It's flown by. So, as we wrap this up, Emily, just the last thing I will ask you is there anything else that you wanted to Cover any last words of wisdom that you wanted to kind of let our listeners know. As a trending communicator, I think the.

141
01:06:00,829 --> 01:06:44,795
Emily York: Thing that I has was not top of mind when we started the conversation, but has crystallized in terms of what people are going to need to do in this profession going forward is comfort with ambiguity, which is difficult. Some people are naturally very comfortable in ambiguous situations. I think the future is ambiguous and it's going to be an increasingly important skill and agility. So adapting in those situations and trying to thrive in those situations.

142
01:06:45,255 --> 01:06:46,075
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

143
01:06:46,375 --> 01:07:01,137
Emily York: Because there's going to be a lot of that. And I think those will be in addition to soft skills and creating relationships and getting. Earning trust will be increasingly important.

144
01:07:01,321 --> 01:07:37,667
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, we can't downplay the importance of relationships and trust. This being in person, whenever you can be with people that you care about, the people that you are doing business with. High value, high, high value now and will continue to be. And you know, in my mind, dealing with ambiguity is sort of second nature. We've talked about this before, Emily. It's like, you know, you say, you talk about procrastination. I have mugs all over the place that say, stop procrastinating. They haven't worked because you never put.

145
01:07:37,691 --> 01:07:39,215
Emily York: Them away if they're all over the place.

146
01:07:40,755 --> 01:08:33,515
Daniel Nestle: You know, I just, I have a natural kind of tendency towards being ambiguous sometimes myself in terms of what I want to do. So, so the dealing with ambiguity, understanding, you know, what's coming next, nobody can make stake a claim on that. But it helps to really just keep learning, reading, getting your hands on some skills. Nowadays, of course, it's all about AI. I think it's going to be about AI for a very long time. And, you know, how we implement and employ that as professionals can have a tremendous bearing on your career direction. But it's not the only thing, you know, it is definitely not the only thing out there. So don't feel like you need to be like, worried if you're not like a big AI person, because it's just what we talk about. My show is called the trending Communicator.

147
01:08:33,555 --> 01:08:42,502
Daniel Nestle: We got to talk about AI. But there's, There are paths, plenty of paths, I think, for a great writer. Right. For a great writer and thinker.

148
01:08:42,679 --> 01:08:52,031
Emily York: Well, and I think if I. One more thing that you had asked about and I kept getting, because I had terrible ADHD and wind up on all kinds of different topics.

149
01:08:52,063 --> 01:08:55,462
Daniel Nestle: I was a little worried about our conversation simply because we would be ping ponging a bit, but that's.

150
01:08:55,519 --> 01:08:56,719
Emily York: We've stayed focused.

151
01:08:56,767 --> 01:08:57,903
Daniel Nestle: ADHD thing. Yeah.

152
01:08:57,959 --> 01:09:25,479
Emily York: But you asked me about how consulting went and how I decided to go back in house. And I did love the consulting. I loved going out and talking to people and working for people who I wanted to work with and identify the project that I thought was right and sell that and do that. And that was really exciting. And to be hired, to be that expert in the room and to be someone's choice, to be their expert was such a thrill.

153
01:09:25,607 --> 01:09:26,055
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

154
01:09:26,135 --> 01:09:37,575
Emily York: And humbling. When this role came around. And this goes back to soft skills. The. I didn't love work. I didn't love coming home and doing the work alone.

155
01:09:37,955 --> 01:09:38,731
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

156
01:09:38,883 --> 01:10:02,187
Emily York: And getting the opportunity to go to an organization where I knew I was going to get to make an impact with people who are really smart and really passionate and really looking to build something that was just, it was too, it was just too exciting. And it's been really rewarding. But I know that I am a super collaborative person.

157
01:10:02,331 --> 01:10:02,849
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

158
01:10:02,947 --> 01:10:14,117
Emily York: And I, I need those relationships and those challenges and the constant, like, now, let's do this and for me and the opportunity for me to say, let's try this and this. And it's. It's what I need.

159
01:10:14,261 --> 01:11:08,335
Daniel Nestle: It's such an important lesson and it's a great way to kind of wrap this up because I. We are by nature, by DNA, by evolution, whatever it is. We are social creatures. And there's definitely one place where AI will do nothing for you, is being a human connection for you. In fact, we know it can go in the wrong direction very quickly. We've seen that so far. Not to say that it's not going to evolve, but it's not going to be like sitting in a room with human beings with your reading faces, looking at smiles of joy or scowls of anger. There are so many valuable things when you're sitting around in the same place with people. Sitting in a room, in a bar, out in a field, whatever it is. So go touch the grass. I think that's what we want to say.

160
01:11:08,495 --> 01:11:54,787
Daniel Nestle: Go touch the grass. It's a good advice for anybody who's thinking about their career. Go outside, touch the grass, Think about your career. Emily, I think, like I said, I keep talking to you, there's. There is a bright future, certainly for, I think for all of us, but definitely for you. I'm really excited to see how your career goes and for you and anybody who's interested in learning more about Emily Just look for her on LinkedIn. Emily, Emily Bryson York is where you'll find her. And did I get that right? I think I did. And you know, of course, at Russell Reynolds. Emily, is there any place else that you are active or that you're seeing often where folks can learn more about you?

161
01:11:54,971 --> 01:11:58,387
Emily York: That's basically it. I'm trying to. Trying to stay focused.

162
01:11:58,491 --> 01:11:59,135
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

163
01:11:59,435 --> 01:12:11,739
Emily York: Constant challenge. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. You have such a great program, and I know you have great things ahead for your clients or whatever you wind up deciding to do next.

164
01:12:11,827 --> 01:12:14,867
Daniel Nestle: This is why I have you on the show, Emily, for the validation that.

165
01:12:14,891 --> 01:12:16,867
Emily York: I'm doing the right thing. I'm here for you.

166
01:12:17,011 --> 01:12:18,299
Daniel Nestle: All right, thanks so much.

167
01:12:18,427 --> 01:12:19,535
Emily York: Thank you. Take care.

168
01:12:25,475 --> 01:12:49,785
Daniel Nestle: Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you have ideas for future guests or you want to be on the show? Let me know@danerendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.