Spin sucks, The PESO Model is the answer, and AI can help - with Gini Dietrich

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Dan Nestle: Welcome or welcome back to the trending

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Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. You

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know, not too long ago, I was at one of those

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executive team meetings that so many of us dread.

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The kind where we had to make some hard

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decisions. One of those course correction trade

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offs, everyone do their part meetings where you

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know going into it that when all is said and

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done, people, friends, teammates, direct reports

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are going to lose their jobs. And as the comms

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guy, I knew it would fall on me and my team to

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figure out how to deliver the bad news to our

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employees. So when I chimed in and I asked a few

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questions to help me formulate the messaging,

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FAQs and such, one of the execs stopped me and

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just said, can you spin this somehow? Of course,

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I politely declined. And I talked about things

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like ethics and transparency. Maybe I referred to

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pigs and lipstick and turd polishing. And then I

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went ahead and did my job properly. I bring this

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up because that word spin has done incredible

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damage to the reputation and perception of PR and

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comms. And as much as we've moved on, clearly

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some people never got the memo. Spin truly sucks.

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And there are few people in our profession who

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have done more to distance us from spin than my

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guest today, the founder and creator behind

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spinsucks.com a decade ago, in her book entitled

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Spin Sucks, she laid out a manual for honest,

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responsible and ethical communications and

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introduced the PR world to my very favorite and

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most indispensable tool for strategic

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communications, the Peso Peso model. Since then,

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she's expanded on the model, created peso courses

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and resources to implement the model, and has

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continued blogging on spinsucks.com, staying on

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top of the developments in comms and marketing,

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especially advances in technology and AI, and

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evolving the model along the way. She's a

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prolific public speaker, author of two books,

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Undisputed PR Thought Leader, podcaster and CEO

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of her own agency, Armit Dietrich. Get ready to

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get into Peso AI and more with my friend and PR

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legend Gini Dietrich. Wow.

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Gini Dietrich: It was quite the intro.

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Dan Nestle: Holy smokes.

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Gini Dietrich: Wow.

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Dan Nestle: Well, normally, you know, like I, I was just

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thinking about it and we're going to be talking

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about AI, we're going to talk about peso, we're

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going to be talking about things that are really

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germane to, you know, people are listening to the

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show and interesting to people who aren't

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necessarily PR professionals, but, you know,

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maybe marketers, maybe people who are just

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looking for different ways to consider their

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program and to consider how they talk to people.

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But when it comes down to it, you know, I thought

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about this concept of spin and what you've done

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to kind of dismiss it and to change the narrative

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and how even the peso model, everything is a way

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of combating that. You know, from a, from the

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point of, from the perspective of communications

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is a serious business. It's measurable, it's

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strategic, you know, there's no need to even

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think about spin, right. You don't have to make

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shit up when you know that if you just have the

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messaging right, and you have strategy right, and

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you can right hit, hit your different channels,

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understand, you paid your earned, you shared your

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own, that's the peso. Then, you know, there's no

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room for spin. But anyway, that whole thing

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inspired me, but I figured, you know, I'd back

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into it with little story. But it's good to see

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you, Gini.

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Gini Dietrich: Good to see you too, Dan. Yeah. It's funny you

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say that because I think we're in a world now

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where we live in what has been dubbed the post

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truth America, which sucks in and of itself. But

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as communicators, we have to kind of figure out

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how to navigate that. And part of that is you

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can't spin, you can't lie, you can't be

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unethical, you have to be extraordinarily

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transparent and authentic. And we're having to

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reach people where they are. You know, it used to

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be that we could reach people at the 6 o'clock

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news because everybody sat down, watched the

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news, had their dinner and then went up about

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their night. Nobody does that anymore, right. And

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so you have all these disparate media bubbles

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that we have to look at and people can spot the

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spin, they can spot the lies, they can spot it.

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You know, in this world of misinformation and mis

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and mal and disinformation, it's all this stuff

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that's going on around our world and we have, our

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job is to maintain the trust and the authority

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and the authenticity.

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Dan Nestle: Yeah, it's interesting how there's been such a

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upswell in discussions of misinformation,

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disinformation, mal information, information, any

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of the informations. So much so that, you know, I

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firmly believe that even the term misinformation

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is a kind of misinformation. Sometimes, you know,

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it's, it's just, you know, these are, these are

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heavy, heavy handed tools. You know, language is

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a heavy handed tool and when it's overused and

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over deployed, we blunt the edges too much. And I

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think that's sometimes the case with

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misinformation. And it's almost like, you know,

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the Boy who Cried Wolf, where we have so many

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people crying misinformation. Misinformation.

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Oftentimes they're absolutely right. It is

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misinformation. It is, sure. You know, or worse,

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disinformation.

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Gini Dietrich: Yep.

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Dan Nestle: But I think we. We have to really be much more

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careful moving forward as a. As a profession,

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certainly as a society, it's harder to do the

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society thing, but at least as a profession in

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being very kind of, you know, diligent about how

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we're. What we're labeling things and who is the

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arbiter of the truth, who is the arbiter of fact.

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You know, there shouldn't be any arbiters of

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fact, by the way. Facts are facts.

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Gini Dietrich: Correct. You know, but yes, unfortunately, that's

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not the world we live in.

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Dan Nestle: Yeah, but if, you know. But if there's an

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interpretation, then just, you know, there's

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gotta be some way. Look, label it as such. I know

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that's. That some people try. But, you know,

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sometimes what has been decried as misinformation

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is turned. Turns out to be totally true later. Or

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what is said to be true turns out to be, like,

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disinformation later. Like, it's just. It's just

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a mess. So we need to really be able to not only

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stand by what we say is misinformation or have

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rationale for it, but if it turns out that we

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were wrong, we have to come out and say we were

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wrong.

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Gini Dietrich: Right?

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Dan Nestle: Right. Like, yes, that's the worst. When there's

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like, some denial.

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Gini Dietrich: And It's Crisis Communications 101.

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Dan Nestle: Yeah. It's funny. You wrote about.

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Gini Dietrich: I bet you were wrong.

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Dan Nestle: You wrote about this today, didn't you? This was

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like your blog post today was about

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misinformation. Well, it was the one that was

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published today.

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Gini Dietrich: I lose track. I lose track.

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Dan Nestle: That's the one that was published today, I think.

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But, you know, because you are prolific and, you

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know, you write all the time and I love your

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writing style, by the way.

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Gini Dietrich: Thank you.

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Dan Nestle: I should say that. And then, you know, at the

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end, we'll give all the links to people. But, I

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mean, we wanted to talk about Peso and, you know,

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we could start with misinformation stuff. Peso

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model is like your, you know, it's not the one

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size fits all for everything, you know, because

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it's a strategic tool. But. But it can help

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everybody, I think, combat all of these problems

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and approach all these problems. So why don't we

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kind of back up a little bit? And first of all,

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you know, I introduce you. I think most, a lot of

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people listening just know who you are, but, you

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know, maybe quick top line, who is Gini? And

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let's talk about Peso. So, you know, give us the

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scoop.

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Gini Dietrich: I mean, you already did say who I am. So I run an

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agency. I have all these Spin Sucks properties.

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But yeah, I mean, you raised the point that the

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Peso model was outlined and introduced 10 years

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ago when Spin Sucks, the book was published. And

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I'm working on the second edition right now,

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which I'm very comfortable saying because I'm

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almost halfway finished with it. So I can't wait

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to actually say that I am working on it. And in

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the first edition it was mentioned and it was

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sort of, this is how I see the future going. But

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it wasn't fully baked. And in the second edition

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it will be very much. The book is led by Peso

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because a couple of things. Number one is what I

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have found is there's lots and lots and lots of

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misconceptions. And part of that is my fault

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because like I said, I published this book and it

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wasn't fully baked. And also it was 10 years ago.

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Right? So imagine, I mean, think about what has

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changed in the last 10 years. Just a few things

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in our careers. I mean, insane, what has changed

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and going to change with AI. And so people tend

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to look at Peso and go, oh, okay, well, I've got

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some social media advertising, I'm doing some

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media relations, I've got some blogging and we're

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sharing it on LinkedIn and TikTok. So I've done

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the Peso model. That's not it. It's not a list of

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tactics. You can't just pull tactics from each

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media type and call it the Peso model. It's

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really about an integrated model that's

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measurable and it's measurable to the things that

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executives care about. I think our industry

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overall tends to measure outcome or outputs

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instead of outcomes. So we measure activities

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instead of real, tangible results. And part of

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that's because there isn't a uniform way for us

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to do it like there are in the other industries

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in our marketing and advertising, for instance.

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But also it's. It's hard. It's hard to measure.

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It's hard to say, well, we did this and it

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translated to this because there's so many

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different points on the customer journey, but we

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have to do a better job of that. And the Peso

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model When you integrate it correctly instead of

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just using a list of tactics does help you do

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that.

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Dan Nestle: Can you run through each of the elements of the

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peso model for our listeners? You know, like,

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there will be quite a few people who know it, but

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many more who don't. And I think everybody needs

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to. So if you can.

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Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Off with the P. It's ingrained,

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ingrained right here. So paid is or P is paid.

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And you know, we're not, we're not talking about

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doing super bowl ads and billboards and things

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like that. We're talking about what you and I

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know as advertorials from when we began our

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career. It's really good content that you might

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pay to place or you've boosted it. It might be

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your earned coverage that you're boosting on

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social media or through Google Ads. It's the

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white paper or the ebook that you created that

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you are using ads to promote to get people to

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download it. It's the webinar that you're using

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ads to promote to get people to attend. So that's

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the paid media I talk about. It's the kinds of

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things that as communicators we can, for lack of

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a better term, control. Then you have E, which is

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earned. And you know, in the beginning, earned

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media was very much media relations. It was

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broadcast, it was trade, it was print,

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newspapers, magazines. And today it has expanded.

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I think it was in March, March or May, one of the

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M months, the Axios came out and said there are

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12 disparate media bubbles and you have to think

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about where your audience is. So they might be on

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TikTok, they might be watching the evening news,

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they might still get the New York Times hard

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copy, or they might be getting their news on

250
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Facebook. Like you have to figure out where

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they're getting it. They might be getting it from

252
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right wing media, they might be getting it from

253
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left wing media. You have to understand where

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your audiences are and then go there. So it's

255
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less about media relations and more about

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influencers. It's really about the third party

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credibility. So how could you gain third party

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credibility? And in some cases that might be

259
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reviews, it might be comments, it might be

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community engagement, it's other people giving

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you the credibility that you need. So you're

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earning that trust, right? And then S is shared

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and really shared is social media. It's

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community, it's the private social. So you have

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like discord, you have signal, you have slack,

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you have teams. All of the places that you're.

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You can distribute Blue sky threads, all the

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places. And then owned is content. So content

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really, from the perspective of you are creating

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content that lives on something that you own. So

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where people get. Get confused is they might have

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a LinkedIn newsletter that's not owned content,

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that's shared content because it's on LinkedIn.

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If you have it on your website and then you're

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repurposing it to LinkedIn that's owned because

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you're using, you're renting it to LinkedIn. But

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owned is the content that lives on something that

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you have control over. So it's not renting it out

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to the social media networks. And then when you

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bring it all together, you have community, you

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have pay for play, you have lead generation, you

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have search engine optimization. And then you

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have the ultimate experience, expertise,

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authority and trust.

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Dan Nestle: Experience, expertise, authority, trust. Yep. And

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that is eats, right?

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Gini Dietrich: That is eat Authority, trust. Or as I like to

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say, eat.

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Dan Nestle: Eat. That is a big meal, you know.

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Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it is.

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Dan Nestle: And that's a newer addition to the bottle, the

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eat.

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Gini Dietrich: It is. I can't remember when it's been probably

294
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about a year that Google came out and said,

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listen, with generative AI, we're going to serve

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up content that demonstrates that you have your

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experience and your expertise. So lots of people

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are using AI to create content. My favorite thing

299
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in the whole wide world is when I get my media

300
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monitoring report and it's like so and so

301
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mentioned spin sucks or has mentioned you. And I

302
00:14:00,577 --> 00:14:03,391
go and I look and it's like in today's

303
00:14:03,463 --> 00:14:05,343
challenging landscape, and you're like, oh, come

304
00:14:05,359 --> 00:14:08,247
on, you can't even change the intro. Like,

305
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everybody knows that's how AI starts.

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Dan Nestle: Let's delve into the world of.

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Gini Dietrich: Right.

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Dan Nestle: Well, I have instructed all of my AI to not use

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the word delve. And it's only a short workaround

310
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because it's only a matter of time before they

311
00:14:21,951 --> 00:14:23,863
start saying explore too much and that becomes a

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00:14:23,879 --> 00:14:28,345
bad word. Right, Right. It's crazy. But this,

313
00:14:28,385 --> 00:14:30,545
this is, it's so. So. Thank you for laying out

314
00:14:30,665 --> 00:14:33,865
the model. Right. So patterns, everybody has a

315
00:14:33,905 --> 00:14:38,113
different, you know, strip strategy, business

316
00:14:38,169 --> 00:14:40,009
strategy that they have to support or different

317
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executives they need to support. And. Yep. You

318
00:14:42,249 --> 00:14:48,517
know, so when you look at the four, I don't know,

319
00:14:48,531 --> 00:14:49,929
I'm going to call them quadrants, for lack of a

320
00:14:49,937 --> 00:14:51,801
better word. But they're not really quadrants

321
00:14:51,833 --> 00:14:53,761
because they're, they're connected and they're

322
00:14:53,793 --> 00:14:58,425
overlapping. But it seems like, you know, there's

323
00:14:58,465 --> 00:15:01,777
no, it's not to scale like in other Words like

324
00:15:01,841 --> 00:15:06,009
the P can be really, really tiny sometimes. Yeah.

325
00:15:06,057 --> 00:15:08,057
Where the E is really large. But it seems to me

326
00:15:08,081 --> 00:15:11,273
also that the E is usually pretty big. So is

327
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there, you know, is there a way to visualize that

328
00:15:13,705 --> 00:15:16,313
or is it, you know, like what do you think in

329
00:15:16,329 --> 00:15:16,481
general?

330
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Gini Dietrich: It depends. You know, one of the questions I get

331
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is do you have to balance out budget and

332
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resources for each media type? And the answer is

333
00:15:24,593 --> 00:15:27,781
probably not. Yeah, it does depend on your goals.

334
00:15:27,853 --> 00:15:32,749
Like we have one client that I would say owned is

335
00:15:32,797 --> 00:15:40,773
probably 70%, paid is 20, shared is 15, and

336
00:15:40,909 --> 00:15:44,693
earned is only 5. So it just depends. It depends

337
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on what you're trying to achieve.

338
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Dan Nestle: Yeah.

339
00:15:46,981 --> 00:15:49,709
Gini Dietrich: And it will change too as you grow and as it

340
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evolves and as your programs evolve, that will

341
00:15:52,453 --> 00:15:54,429
change as well. You might put more into earned

342
00:15:54,477 --> 00:15:55,951
and less into paid.

343
00:15:56,133 --> 00:15:58,923
Dan Nestle: You know, I've used it in so many ways over time

344
00:15:59,019 --> 00:16:01,947
and you know, frankly, I was using it before I

345
00:16:01,971 --> 00:16:04,467
knew what it was called and before I knew it

346
00:16:04,491 --> 00:16:07,747
belonged to you. You know, because clearly some

347
00:16:07,771 --> 00:16:09,787
folks have been marching around with variations

348
00:16:09,851 --> 00:16:10,707
of the.

349
00:16:10,731 --> 00:16:14,299
Gini Dietrich: Peso model and there's one that's calling it

350
00:16:14,347 --> 00:16:16,215
pose. I'm like, you can't do that.

351
00:16:18,635 --> 00:16:20,451
Dan Nestle: I've heard, I've, yeah, I've heard different

352
00:16:20,483 --> 00:16:22,805
variations and you know, for our listeners

353
00:16:22,845 --> 00:16:25,621
benefit and for our list and maybe as a warning,

354
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if you use the peso model or any derivative

355
00:16:28,349 --> 00:16:31,013
thereof, Jeannie owns that. Just remember that.

356
00:16:31,149 --> 00:16:32,773
Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I get a letter from my attorney.

357
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Dan Nestle: Get a letter. Rightly so, you know, because it's

358
00:16:35,661 --> 00:16:37,109
a really interesting, it's a really incredible

359
00:16:37,157 --> 00:16:40,973
piece of ip. You know, what I was going to say

360
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though is I, you know, I find it very useful as a

361
00:16:44,421 --> 00:16:47,877
validator, you know, almost sometimes after the

362
00:16:47,901 --> 00:16:51,523
fact, once you're, you're running a comms team or

363
00:16:51,539 --> 00:16:54,691
you're kind of looking at a, at a broad horizon

364
00:16:54,763 --> 00:16:57,355
of, or all the different activities and different

365
00:16:57,395 --> 00:17:00,255
kind of strategies that are available to you to

366
00:17:00,755 --> 00:17:04,675
achieve the mission of your organization, your

367
00:17:04,715 --> 00:17:07,615
client, whoever you're representing yourself,

368
00:17:09,155 --> 00:17:13,851
then like lay the peso model over it and see what

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you're missing.

370
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Gini Dietrich: You know, well done.

371
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Dan Nestle: It's kind of a, it's a, it's kind of a useful

372
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thing, you know. Oh, have I done these different

373
00:17:20,643 --> 00:17:22,171
things? And have I done these different things?

374
00:17:22,203 --> 00:17:24,899
Oh, there's no. Am I, am I really down

375
00:17:24,987 --> 00:17:29,419
downplaying shared here, you know. Yeah, but, you

376
00:17:29,427 --> 00:17:31,027
know, but to that. Actually, now I mentioned

377
00:17:31,051 --> 00:17:33,195
shared, I think some, some people might have

378
00:17:33,235 --> 00:17:37,283
questions about, you know, the kind of difference

379
00:17:37,339 --> 00:17:40,411
between like shared and earned in a Lot of ways,

380
00:17:40,443 --> 00:17:44,437
it seems like once somebody shares something on

381
00:17:44,461 --> 00:17:48,693
your behalf, does that now count as earned? Or

382
00:17:48,829 --> 00:17:51,101
are you talking about shared as the platform

383
00:17:51,173 --> 00:17:54,253
itself? By placing somebody, by placing something

384
00:17:54,309 --> 00:17:57,917
in a shared media, a social media or, you know,

385
00:17:57,941 --> 00:18:01,989
or a, you know, a discord or something like this,

386
00:18:02,037 --> 00:18:05,093
where a messaging platform or something like

387
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:09,589
that, does that now become shared or both or all

388
00:18:09,597 --> 00:18:10,385
of the above?

389
00:18:11,285 --> 00:18:13,797
Gini Dietrich: I mean, you could argue semantics for sure. And

390
00:18:13,861 --> 00:18:16,053
if you wanted to count it as shared, you probably

391
00:18:16,149 --> 00:18:18,397
could. I think it would probably get too unruly

392
00:18:18,461 --> 00:18:24,109
to be able to do that because how many retweets

393
00:18:24,157 --> 00:18:25,829
and reposts and things like that can you get?

394
00:18:25,877 --> 00:18:30,813
Like, it could get really unruly. So if you think

395
00:18:30,829 --> 00:18:34,399
about the outcome of each. So the outcome of, of

396
00:18:34,447 --> 00:18:38,039
paid media is to grow your reach. The outcome of

397
00:18:38,087 --> 00:18:40,367
earned is to earn that credibility, to get that

398
00:18:40,391 --> 00:18:44,711
third party validation. The outcome of shared is

399
00:18:44,783 --> 00:18:48,791
to distribute to existing audiences and build

400
00:18:48,863 --> 00:18:50,943
community and engagement and brand ambassadors,

401
00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:53,647
you know, brand loyalists. And then the outcome

402
00:18:53,671 --> 00:18:56,311
of Owned is storytelling. It's how do you best

403
00:18:56,343 --> 00:18:59,951
tell your story? So, and your messaging and

404
00:18:59,983 --> 00:19:02,183
consistency and all those kinds of things. So if

405
00:19:02,199 --> 00:19:04,047
you think about it from an outcome perspective,

406
00:19:04,111 --> 00:19:05,987
sure, you could argue the semantics and if you

407
00:19:06,011 --> 00:19:08,627
wanted to call that earned, you probably could.

408
00:19:08,691 --> 00:19:12,891
But I would rather see PR professionals really

409
00:19:12,923 --> 00:19:15,307
focus on the outcomes, the measurable outcomes,

410
00:19:15,371 --> 00:19:19,075
than try to say, well, we got engagement and

411
00:19:19,115 --> 00:19:21,255
reach and because of that we've earned it.

412
00:19:21,595 --> 00:19:25,683
Dan Nestle: It's. Well, I mean, if you give PR professionals

413
00:19:25,819 --> 00:19:28,435
like various ways to do something, they're going

414
00:19:28,435 --> 00:19:30,163
to do something in various ways. I mean, that's

415
00:19:30,179 --> 00:19:34,081
just the way of things, you know, whatever

416
00:19:34,153 --> 00:19:37,393
actually is most convincing to the CEO or to

417
00:19:37,409 --> 00:19:40,297
their client at the time. And, you know, there's

418
00:19:40,321 --> 00:19:42,705
nothing wrong with that. You mentioned something

419
00:19:42,745 --> 00:19:47,521
though, there that really kind of is not only

420
00:19:47,553 --> 00:19:50,089
intriguing, but I hear a lot lately is this is

421
00:19:50,137 --> 00:19:54,017
just the word community, Right. And owned, I'm

422
00:19:54,041 --> 00:19:58,097
sorry, shared as a sort of function of. Is shared

423
00:19:58,121 --> 00:20:01,251
a function of community or is shared shared

424
00:20:01,363 --> 00:20:03,859
within the model? Was community part of shared? I

425
00:20:03,867 --> 00:20:06,507
don't, I don't know. But where I was going with

426
00:20:06,531 --> 00:20:12,347
this is that community itself, those are now kind

427
00:20:12,371 --> 00:20:15,771
of audience groups, right? Communities. There's

428
00:20:15,803 --> 00:20:19,275
different audience groups. And approaching a

429
00:20:19,315 --> 00:20:21,603
community within the community itself, you could

430
00:20:21,619 --> 00:20:25,763
be aiming for earned within the community. Sure.

431
00:20:25,819 --> 00:20:28,071
Right. Or you can, you could be some communities.

432
00:20:28,103 --> 00:20:30,047
You can even do paid within a community, right?

433
00:20:30,151 --> 00:20:31,007
Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yep.

434
00:20:31,071 --> 00:20:34,895
Dan Nestle: So it's like you can keep replicating peso like

435
00:20:34,935 --> 00:20:36,367
ad infinitum in a better ways.

436
00:20:36,391 --> 00:20:39,247
Gini Dietrich: It's interesting and that's the value of it, of

437
00:20:39,271 --> 00:20:41,215
the integration. That's why it's less about the

438
00:20:41,255 --> 00:20:43,111
tactics and more about how you bring this all

439
00:20:43,143 --> 00:20:46,511
together. Right. So a really good example of that

440
00:20:46,543 --> 00:20:50,119
is we have a client that is launching a campaign

441
00:20:50,207 --> 00:20:53,175
and they did a. They did a really great job of

442
00:20:53,295 --> 00:20:56,263
earned media at a local level with, with local

443
00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:01,417
broadcast. That was it. There was no, there

444
00:21:01,441 --> 00:21:03,561
wasn't any content development. There wasn't any

445
00:21:03,593 --> 00:21:05,713
shared social media content, which means there

446
00:21:05,729 --> 00:21:08,817
wasn't any ability to use any paid. They just did

447
00:21:08,841 --> 00:21:14,121
the media relations. And I was like, no, you had

448
00:21:14,153 --> 00:21:16,761
this. I mean, and they were there on the ground

449
00:21:16,833 --> 00:21:19,801
with the news stations and you just had this huge

450
00:21:19,873 --> 00:21:22,641
opportunity to do all this other stuff and

451
00:21:22,673 --> 00:21:24,737
didn't. So that's what I really want people to

452
00:21:24,761 --> 00:21:27,773
think about when they're doing peso is how do we

453
00:21:27,829 --> 00:21:29,885
extend what we're already doing? How do we

454
00:21:29,925 --> 00:21:32,989
repurpose it in ways that we don't have to add

455
00:21:33,037 --> 00:21:34,733
more on, we don't have to add budget, we don't

456
00:21:34,749 --> 00:21:37,785
have to have resources, we just do more.

457
00:21:39,525 --> 00:21:44,021
Dan Nestle: You're circling kind of around this point or at

458
00:21:44,053 --> 00:21:48,101
this point that I did want to explore more with

459
00:21:48,133 --> 00:21:53,071
you in the earn side of things. And I mean, now,

460
00:21:53,143 --> 00:21:56,751
why not? Why not now? You know, there's, there's

461
00:21:56,783 --> 00:22:00,715
this, that's a great example of, you know,

462
00:22:01,095 --> 00:22:04,095
somebody going for the media and taking the like

463
00:22:04,135 --> 00:22:06,567
traditional media relations, getting the coverage

464
00:22:06,631 --> 00:22:10,791
and taking that as the win. And sure, there are

465
00:22:10,823 --> 00:22:14,487
situations where it would be a big win in and of

466
00:22:14,511 --> 00:22:15,087
itself.

467
00:22:15,231 --> 00:22:17,231
Gini Dietrich: Sure, absolutely right.

468
00:22:17,343 --> 00:22:21,775
Dan Nestle: But, but the way that we approach media relations

469
00:22:21,855 --> 00:22:25,167
these days, and we've talked about this a little

470
00:22:25,191 --> 00:22:26,823
bit, and I know you've written about this and

471
00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:28,719
I've written about it, but the way we approach

472
00:22:28,767 --> 00:22:33,279
media relations these days, it seems to be, well,

473
00:22:33,327 --> 00:22:36,871
let's just say old. It seems to be a sort of

474
00:22:36,983 --> 00:22:40,111
obsolete approach in that just like I said

475
00:22:40,143 --> 00:22:42,551
before, you're looking at the activity versus the

476
00:22:42,583 --> 00:22:48,005
results and you know, just by virtue of getting a

477
00:22:48,505 --> 00:22:53,489
media hit in the tier of your choice, suddenly

478
00:22:53,537 --> 00:22:57,169
you're, you feel like you've done your job. If

479
00:22:57,177 --> 00:22:59,673
you overlay me, if you overlay peso on top of

480
00:22:59,689 --> 00:23:02,889
that, you, you know that you're missing a lot.

481
00:23:03,017 --> 00:23:03,805
Gini Dietrich: Yep.

482
00:23:04,625 --> 00:23:07,321
Dan Nestle: But you know, the nature of earned media itself,

483
00:23:07,473 --> 00:23:11,577
going for these, you know, these media hits that

484
00:23:11,601 --> 00:23:16,075
are, in that example you gave, just by definition

485
00:23:16,155 --> 00:23:18,235
fleeting. They disappear after a couple days.

486
00:23:18,275 --> 00:23:20,575
There's nothing, there's no knock on effect,

487
00:23:21,355 --> 00:23:23,467
rarely, unless it's a bad thing, in which case

488
00:23:23,491 --> 00:23:27,059
it'll linger Forever. But generally speaking, no

489
00:23:27,107 --> 00:23:31,131
media is one hit move on, One hit move on and has

490
00:23:31,203 --> 00:23:34,259
very questionable results about your reputation,

491
00:23:34,307 --> 00:23:38,347
brand, et cetera. So how do you think the nature

492
00:23:38,411 --> 00:23:43,225
of. In the earned kind of category of peso,

493
00:23:43,305 --> 00:23:45,561
especially if you think of it in that way, how

494
00:23:45,593 --> 00:23:49,245
has that changed and how is it changing and

495
00:23:50,305 --> 00:23:52,873
what's wrong with media relations as we know it?

496
00:23:53,009 --> 00:23:56,281
That's a lot to talk about, but take it from any

497
00:23:56,313 --> 00:24:00,313
angle you wish, Gini, because I have a soapbox on

498
00:24:00,329 --> 00:24:01,125
this too.

499
00:24:02,505 --> 00:24:07,257
Gini Dietrich: We do a lot of work with universities and through

500
00:24:07,281 --> 00:24:10,481
our, through our certification. And one of the

501
00:24:10,513 --> 00:24:12,657
things that I've noticed in the last five years

502
00:24:12,721 --> 00:24:14,625
is that when you talk to college students about

503
00:24:14,665 --> 00:24:17,649
media relations or earned media, the first place

504
00:24:17,697 --> 00:24:22,001
they go is not traditional media ever. I've never

505
00:24:22,073 --> 00:24:24,401
in the last five years had a student say, oh,

506
00:24:24,433 --> 00:24:26,145
well, yeah, let's go to Good Morning America

507
00:24:26,225 --> 00:24:31,017
ever. And so that in its of self is shifting. You

508
00:24:31,041 --> 00:24:33,705
also you layer on the fact that media is not

509
00:24:33,745 --> 00:24:36,775
trusted. I think we've seen that we are just

510
00:24:36,815 --> 00:24:38,975
coming out of the election. I think we all agree

511
00:24:39,015 --> 00:24:42,303
that media's not media is not the media that it

512
00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:44,567
was when we were starting our careers.

513
00:24:44,631 --> 00:24:47,551
Dan Nestle: Yeah, Gallup had that poll before the election

514
00:24:47,623 --> 00:24:50,615
that media trust was at like 31% lower than

515
00:24:50,655 --> 00:24:53,855
Congress and lower than Congress. Lower than

516
00:24:53,895 --> 00:24:55,911
Congress. And Edelman Trust Barometer is always

517
00:24:55,943 --> 00:24:58,903
saying, showing the decline in trusted media. I

518
00:24:58,919 --> 00:25:01,813
would venture that, you know, here we are at the

519
00:25:01,829 --> 00:25:04,213
time of this recording. You know, we're basically

520
00:25:04,269 --> 00:25:06,421
two weeks after, roughly two weeks after the

521
00:25:06,453 --> 00:25:09,933
election. Not quite, but I would venture, say

522
00:25:09,949 --> 00:25:12,469
that that number is probably down to 15 now.

523
00:25:12,557 --> 00:25:15,133
Like, I would. It may be worse. Like, yeah, it

524
00:25:15,149 --> 00:25:19,253
is, it is a, it is an institution that, that is

525
00:25:19,309 --> 00:25:22,117
crumbling and you know, traditional. And talk

526
00:25:22,141 --> 00:25:25,053
about traditional media. So anyway, and that's.

527
00:25:25,109 --> 00:25:28,375
That just colors this whole, this whole kind of

528
00:25:28,535 --> 00:25:29,591
landscape that we live in.

529
00:25:29,663 --> 00:25:32,015
Gini Dietrich: Right. And then think about how you get your

530
00:25:32,055 --> 00:25:36,823
information. I mean, unless you're, unless you're

531
00:25:36,879 --> 00:25:40,103
80 years old or older, you're not getting

532
00:25:40,239 --> 00:25:43,583
information or your news from TV anymore. You're

533
00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:48,023
just not. You know, there's, there are lots of.

534
00:25:48,159 --> 00:25:50,831
And, and because of what I do for a living, I

535
00:25:50,863 --> 00:25:52,623
will go the extra step. But there are lots of

536
00:25:52,639 --> 00:25:55,423
times where I'll see something on TikTok or on

537
00:25:55,479 --> 00:25:57,471
Facebook or on Instagram and think, well, that's

538
00:25:57,503 --> 00:25:59,823
interesting. And then I go do my due diligence to

539
00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:02,015
see if it's factual and, you know, all those

540
00:26:02,055 --> 00:26:05,135
kinds of things. But that, like, things are

541
00:26:05,175 --> 00:26:08,407
introduced to me in the first place there. And

542
00:26:08,431 --> 00:26:11,183
then secondly, just by swiping my phone over to

543
00:26:11,199 --> 00:26:13,463
the right to see what news is being delivered to

544
00:26:13,479 --> 00:26:17,615
me via my Apple News app. Right. So it's

545
00:26:17,655 --> 00:26:21,609
completely changed. And I started to realize this

546
00:26:21,737 --> 00:26:23,777
probably three years ago. I was sitting in the

547
00:26:23,801 --> 00:26:27,705
chair getting my hair cut and my hairdresser is

548
00:26:27,745 --> 00:26:30,353
about 15 years younger than I am. And she was

549
00:26:30,369 --> 00:26:33,673
like, yeah, so on TikTok I found this. And then I

550
00:26:33,689 --> 00:26:35,273
went down the rabbit hole and I'm like, wait a

551
00:26:35,289 --> 00:26:38,313
second, you're getting all of your information

552
00:26:38,409 --> 00:26:40,849
from TikTok? And she's like, yeah. And I was

553
00:26:40,897 --> 00:26:44,473
like, what is happening? That's where we are.

554
00:26:44,609 --> 00:26:47,369
Right. So it's less about the traditional media I

555
00:26:47,377 --> 00:26:48,229
think today.

556
00:26:48,417 --> 00:26:51,325
Dan Nestle: And you know, people talk about the evils of

557
00:26:51,445 --> 00:26:54,305
TikTok and the evils of Facebook and whatever.

558
00:26:56,085 --> 00:27:00,197
You know, I'm sure that I heard that and. Which

559
00:27:00,221 --> 00:27:03,501
means everybody's going to hear that. I can

560
00:27:03,533 --> 00:27:07,397
honestly say that the adventures I've had on

561
00:27:07,421 --> 00:27:14,887
TikTok were like straight into the vein. Dopamine.

562
00:27:15,071 --> 00:27:16,007
Gini Dietrich: Oh for sure.

563
00:27:16,111 --> 00:27:20,103
Dan Nestle: Loved it. So much so that I deleted it. Yeah. I.

564
00:27:20,239 --> 00:27:23,703
Right. I mean, but you know, I mean to be like,

565
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:28,195
to be completely Transparent, I deleted TikTok

566
00:27:29,095 --> 00:27:35,351
roughly 10-15-ish of 2023 after the October 7th

567
00:27:35,463 --> 00:27:37,655
attacks in Israel. And I saw what was happening

568
00:27:37,695 --> 00:27:39,175
there. I'm like, this is, this is horrifying.

569
00:27:39,215 --> 00:27:39,607
This is not.

570
00:27:39,631 --> 00:27:39,839
Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

571
00:27:39,887 --> 00:27:42,791
Dan Nestle: It's just a cesspool. So it's just wrong. And

572
00:27:42,823 --> 00:27:45,711
people are getting those bite sized bits of

573
00:27:45,743 --> 00:27:46,223
information.

574
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:46,695
Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

575
00:27:46,735 --> 00:27:49,831
Dan Nestle: You know that it's dangerous. But it's also if,

576
00:27:49,863 --> 00:27:52,007
but if people, but if you're not looking at that,

577
00:27:52,151 --> 00:27:55,255
if you're there to kind of get, I suppose, makeup

578
00:27:55,295 --> 00:27:56,711
tips like my daughter does or.

579
00:27:56,783 --> 00:27:57,103
Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

580
00:27:57,159 --> 00:28:00,063
Dan Nestle: Or you know, to listen to music. It's one, it's,

581
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,767
it's amazing.

582
00:28:00,871 --> 00:28:03,591
Gini Dietrich: The animal videos. Freaking love them. Yeah.

583
00:28:03,783 --> 00:28:07,479
Dan Nestle: You know, I mean, I look, I saw this great meme a

584
00:28:07,487 --> 00:28:09,451
while back and showing people have. Which is that

585
00:28:09,483 --> 00:28:11,187
I don't, you know, I don't use, I don't use

586
00:28:11,211 --> 00:28:14,083
TikTok. I use Instagram reels like a grownup.

587
00:28:14,179 --> 00:28:17,747
Right. But that's a, it's a, it's a very similar,

588
00:28:17,811 --> 00:28:19,243
the algorithm is very different but it's a

589
00:28:19,259 --> 00:28:21,643
similar kind of, you know, doom scrolling, you

590
00:28:21,659 --> 00:28:22,215
know.

591
00:28:22,755 --> 00:28:23,531
Gini Dietrich: Yep.

592
00:28:23,683 --> 00:28:26,011
Dan Nestle: But you know, but you pointed back to your point

593
00:28:26,043 --> 00:28:29,995
though, like reaching customers or audiences

594
00:28:30,035 --> 00:28:33,875
where they are, is, is. Has changed dramatically.

595
00:28:33,915 --> 00:28:34,939
Gini Dietrich: So you're saying dramatically.

596
00:28:35,027 --> 00:28:36,631
Dan Nestle: Yeah. So you're saying that they're not even

597
00:28:36,763 --> 00:28:39,767
like, not even thinking about not even thinking

598
00:28:39,791 --> 00:28:42,631
about it. The TV or traditional. Yeah.

599
00:28:42,743 --> 00:28:44,831
Gini Dietrich: I mean, and, you know, I mean, I come from a big

600
00:28:44,863 --> 00:28:46,775
agency background. One of the first things we

601
00:28:46,815 --> 00:28:49,591
always did when we were doing a new campaign was

602
00:28:49,703 --> 00:28:52,087
how do we get the Today Show? What kind of stunt

603
00:28:52,111 --> 00:28:55,367
do we need to do to get the Good Morning America?

604
00:28:55,471 --> 00:28:58,479
They don't even think about that, which is crazy.

605
00:28:58,567 --> 00:29:02,995
Dan Nestle: Yeah. And that's a lesson, I hope that's learned

606
00:29:03,375 --> 00:29:06,879
in the election, but also across other. Like,

607
00:29:07,047 --> 00:29:12,487
across all facets of our socioeconomic life, big

608
00:29:12,551 --> 00:29:17,279
successes are no longer dictated by a. By a small

609
00:29:17,327 --> 00:29:19,031
number of mouthpieces.

610
00:29:19,183 --> 00:29:19,799
Gini Dietrich: That's right.

611
00:29:19,887 --> 00:29:25,463
Dan Nestle: And, you know, certain platforms and ways of

612
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:28,327
communicating have absolutely skyrocketed and

613
00:29:28,351 --> 00:29:32,147
taken off. Right. Like this one podcast. So,

614
00:29:32,171 --> 00:29:34,763
like, when I do over the last couple years when I

615
00:29:34,779 --> 00:29:38,587
was doing, you know, my own peso thinking under

616
00:29:38,651 --> 00:29:41,067
earned, I'd be writing podcasts. Very big

617
00:29:41,091 --> 00:29:44,731
letters. Podcast, podcast, podcast. And I've had,

618
00:29:44,843 --> 00:29:46,775
you know, initially, people like, you're crazy.

619
00:29:47,315 --> 00:29:49,131
Why. Why do you want to get people on podcasts?

620
00:29:49,163 --> 00:29:51,803
Like, interesting. Nobody listens to those things.

621
00:29:51,939 --> 00:29:53,883
Gini Dietrich: No. Just 150 million Americans.

622
00:29:53,939 --> 00:29:56,475
Dan Nestle: All right. I'm like, I'm not talking about ness.

623
00:29:56,515 --> 00:29:58,067
I mean, I'm not talking about getting somebody on

624
00:29:58,091 --> 00:29:59,743
Joe Rogan, Although, hey, that would be.

625
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:00,111
Gini Dietrich: Right.

626
00:30:00,183 --> 00:30:03,663
Dan Nestle: That would be the biggest coup. Yeah. But just

627
00:30:03,719 --> 00:30:07,475
generally, the wonderful thing about this is,

628
00:30:08,015 --> 00:30:12,175
look, nobody is saying that these are journalists

629
00:30:12,295 --> 00:30:16,475
unless it's a journalist podcast. Right. It's all

630
00:30:17,335 --> 00:30:20,527
kind of very free. You know, they all have their

631
00:30:20,551 --> 00:30:22,391
own biases and opinions, and they're very clear

632
00:30:22,423 --> 00:30:23,799
about it, mostly.

633
00:30:23,927 --> 00:30:24,391
Gini Dietrich: Yep.

634
00:30:24,463 --> 00:30:28,687
Dan Nestle: So, And. And they're readily available. They

635
00:30:28,711 --> 00:30:31,223
record all the time. There's so many of them, so

636
00:30:31,239 --> 00:30:33,439
why not get your people out there? Right? And

637
00:30:33,447 --> 00:30:35,663
then I said to them, you know, so I was. I said

638
00:30:35,679 --> 00:30:38,995
to the naysayers, when is the last time you got a

639
00:30:39,375 --> 00:30:43,863
media hit that you could repurpose into, you

640
00:30:43,879 --> 00:30:47,967
know, 30 different pieces of social media and,

641
00:30:48,151 --> 00:30:53,159
you know, on 15 different channels and, you know,

642
00:30:53,207 --> 00:30:55,199
put it out there a couple of months later and

643
00:30:55,287 --> 00:30:57,711
make it feel new and, you know, derive your

644
00:30:57,743 --> 00:31:01,479
entire CEO speech from it. When did that. Yeah,

645
00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:01,959
you know.

646
00:31:02,047 --> 00:31:03,279
Gini Dietrich: Right, right.

647
00:31:03,407 --> 00:31:07,079
Dan Nestle: You do that from a podcast. So this. So the whole

648
00:31:07,127 --> 00:31:10,115
landscape is. Has completely changed. Earned. And

649
00:31:10,615 --> 00:31:13,047
you were saying about, you know, you're saying

650
00:31:13,071 --> 00:31:17,913
that whether here and in your writing, that, you

651
00:31:17,929 --> 00:31:20,497
know, despite that, there's still an important

652
00:31:20,561 --> 00:31:24,561
place for media relations. And I've come at this

653
00:31:24,633 --> 00:31:27,577
recently from this approach that I'm calling it

654
00:31:27,601 --> 00:31:31,137
earned attention. Now, I had thought that I was

655
00:31:31,161 --> 00:31:33,633
onto some big thing and then I realized somebody

656
00:31:33,649 --> 00:31:37,369
else invented that, and that's fine. A wonderful

657
00:31:37,417 --> 00:31:39,365
marketer, of course, had to come from marketing.

658
00:31:40,505 --> 00:31:42,735
Greg. Greg. Oh, shoot, I forgot his name. But

659
00:31:42,825 --> 00:31:47,419
shout out to Greg anyway. But I, you know, I

660
00:31:47,427 --> 00:31:50,267
think it's, it's more about attention, like

661
00:31:50,291 --> 00:31:53,211
looking at it from where the audiences are, where

662
00:31:53,243 --> 00:31:56,571
they're going to reward you with their attention.

663
00:31:56,723 --> 00:32:00,091
Because attention is gold. Yep. A click is not

664
00:32:00,123 --> 00:32:04,655
gold. Attention is gold. So fitting that into

665
00:32:05,155 --> 00:32:08,723
pesos now, like, that's where my E in peso is.

666
00:32:08,739 --> 00:32:12,431
Okay. It's like earned. Earned attention in my

667
00:32:12,463 --> 00:32:14,239
head. Even though it still says earned media in

668
00:32:14,247 --> 00:32:14,915
the law.

669
00:32:15,455 --> 00:32:17,991
Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was actually thinking about

670
00:32:18,023 --> 00:32:20,927
this last night and I agree with you. I'm just

671
00:32:20,951 --> 00:32:22,687
not going to change it to earn intention because

672
00:32:22,711 --> 00:32:26,823
then from my perspective, because I'm ocd, it

673
00:32:26,879 --> 00:32:30,455
unbalances the model. So then I'd have to change

674
00:32:30,495 --> 00:32:31,287
all the other ones.

675
00:32:31,351 --> 00:32:34,767
Dan Nestle: That's true. Well, what I would posit though is

676
00:32:34,791 --> 00:32:38,933
that, is that earned attention is what you're.

677
00:32:39,109 --> 00:32:41,941
What you're doing. Earned media is what you're

678
00:32:41,973 --> 00:32:45,421
getting. Maybe, like, maybe earned attention is

679
00:32:45,493 --> 00:32:49,885
just a way of thinking about how to achieve their

680
00:32:49,965 --> 00:32:52,653
earned media goals. And, you know, I think it

681
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:56,589
kind of fits within that somewhere. But hey, we

682
00:32:56,597 --> 00:32:59,837
can doodle on that some other time. But I think,

683
00:32:59,901 --> 00:33:03,127
but I do think that earned media, the whole

684
00:33:03,151 --> 00:33:05,127
concept, the whole definition has changed, but

685
00:33:05,271 --> 00:33:09,623
it's become so much broader, so, you know, it's

686
00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:12,479
elevated in importance. Looking at the rest of

687
00:33:12,487 --> 00:33:23,111
the pixel model, the next part of it that I would

688
00:33:23,143 --> 00:33:30,455
say is incredibly, if not pivotally or centrally

689
00:33:30,495 --> 00:33:37,279
important is the O. The O and how, you know, one

690
00:33:37,327 --> 00:33:38,903
can't really happen without the other, I don't

691
00:33:38,919 --> 00:33:42,871
think. Or can't. Can't happen. Well, so you

692
00:33:42,903 --> 00:33:45,595
mentioned about, you know, renting versus owning

693
00:33:46,455 --> 00:33:51,255
for people out there, you know, let's talk a

694
00:33:51,255 --> 00:33:54,529
little bit about building on owned property

695
00:33:54,577 --> 00:33:59,337
versus rented land. And you know, what is. What

696
00:33:59,361 --> 00:34:02,657
does that kind of ultimately do for you, do for

697
00:34:02,681 --> 00:34:05,953
your organization and. Because I think this is

698
00:34:05,969 --> 00:34:07,993
where we're going to start getting into AI a

699
00:34:08,009 --> 00:34:08,885
little bit more.

700
00:34:09,545 --> 00:34:16,873
Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Well, for the most part, I would say almost

701
00:34:16,969 --> 00:34:19,439
every program should start with ownership.

702
00:34:19,557 --> 00:34:21,731
Because you're right, if you don't have content,

703
00:34:21,803 --> 00:34:24,295
you don't have anything to share distribute on

704
00:34:24,675 --> 00:34:27,811
shared. You don't have anything to prove to an

705
00:34:27,843 --> 00:34:31,523
influencer, a journalist, you know, a TikTok news

706
00:34:31,539 --> 00:34:33,931
anchor, who you are, how you think, what your.

707
00:34:34,003 --> 00:34:36,795
What your executives think, what your subject

708
00:34:36,835 --> 00:34:38,483
matter experts can bring to the table. There

709
00:34:38,499 --> 00:34:40,579
isn't anything to demonstrate that. And then of

710
00:34:40,587 --> 00:34:42,227
course, you don't have anything to boost. Right.

711
00:34:42,251 --> 00:34:47,001
You don't have anything to create and put some

712
00:34:47,033 --> 00:34:50,041
money behind to grow your audience. So owned is

713
00:34:50,073 --> 00:34:52,721
probably the best place to start for most

714
00:34:52,753 --> 00:34:55,849
organizations. Now I will give the caveat that if

715
00:34:55,857 --> 00:34:57,489
you're selling widgets and you need to sell a

716
00:34:57,497 --> 00:34:59,801
bunch by Christmas, then paid media is the place

717
00:34:59,833 --> 00:35:02,001
to start. But for everything else, I would say

718
00:35:02,033 --> 00:35:04,673
owned is the place to start. And it's really

719
00:35:04,809 --> 00:35:07,817
like, spend some time on that if you want to

720
00:35:07,841 --> 00:35:09,617
create to your point, if you're going to create a

721
00:35:09,641 --> 00:35:12,795
podcast, spend some time on that and get it right

722
00:35:12,875 --> 00:35:18,203
and get the host conversation down right and get

723
00:35:18,219 --> 00:35:20,787
the guests right and go through some iterations

724
00:35:20,891 --> 00:35:22,715
before you start to promote it with the other

725
00:35:22,755 --> 00:35:24,523
media types. If you're going to be doing

726
00:35:24,579 --> 00:35:27,579
blogging, then get it right and do those like

727
00:35:27,627 --> 00:35:30,243
test and iterate for a little bit before you use

728
00:35:30,259 --> 00:35:32,419
the other media types to get it out there. But

729
00:35:32,467 --> 00:35:34,867
build your social media or your own media assets

730
00:35:34,971 --> 00:35:37,379
first so that then you can use the other media

731
00:35:37,427 --> 00:35:38,655
types appropriately.

732
00:35:39,275 --> 00:35:40,707
Dan Nestle: I love what you said there about test and

733
00:35:40,731 --> 00:35:45,739
iterate, because I think people overlook the fact

734
00:35:45,787 --> 00:35:49,187
that when you're doing owned media, when you're

735
00:35:49,211 --> 00:35:52,331
doing owned content, you have the luxury of

736
00:35:52,363 --> 00:35:55,403
trying things out. You too, you know, and of the.

737
00:35:55,419 --> 00:35:56,611
Gini Dietrich: Nice thing about the Internet.

738
00:35:56,723 --> 00:35:59,683
Dan Nestle: Yeah. And you know, slaving over stuff before you

739
00:35:59,699 --> 00:36:02,387
get it right. But it's interesting. Like, look,

740
00:36:02,411 --> 00:36:05,557
I've been around for a while. I remember not too

741
00:36:05,581 --> 00:36:10,037
long ago when a certain David Meerman Scott was

742
00:36:10,061 --> 00:36:13,765
talking about building your own, how important it

743
00:36:13,765 --> 00:36:16,021
was to build your website. And then news jacking

744
00:36:16,053 --> 00:36:19,221
and all this ecosystem. He was describing new

745
00:36:19,253 --> 00:36:22,245
rules then that seemed to have fallen out of

746
00:36:22,285 --> 00:36:25,725
vogue with the advent of social. And social comes

747
00:36:25,765 --> 00:36:28,765
around, especially LinkedIn. And then for a long

748
00:36:28,805 --> 00:36:31,301
time people were saying, why bother building a

749
00:36:31,333 --> 00:36:34,533
website? You don't need a website anymore. Right.

750
00:36:34,669 --> 00:36:38,221
What's that? And, and I think recently it's

751
00:36:38,413 --> 00:36:42,357
absolutely come full circle, and rightly so, and

752
00:36:42,381 --> 00:36:45,305
especially because AI is crawling all these owned

753
00:36:45,845 --> 00:36:48,085
owned properties and getting a lot of information

754
00:36:48,165 --> 00:36:53,637
from your own properties. But there's a, there's

755
00:36:53,661 --> 00:36:56,685
a renaissance in some ways, I think of, of

756
00:36:56,725 --> 00:36:59,625
websites, of owned properties, of owned content.

757
00:37:00,245 --> 00:37:05,213
Part of it's for SEO, part of it's for AI. But I

758
00:37:05,229 --> 00:37:06,733
also think there's been an attitude change in

759
00:37:06,749 --> 00:37:10,629
that, in that it used to be you build a website

760
00:37:10,757 --> 00:37:12,805
and it had to be a destination. You're measuring

761
00:37:12,885 --> 00:37:16,797
traffic on the website like crazy. Now we take

762
00:37:16,821 --> 00:37:19,685
all that with a grain of salt. I mean, obviously

763
00:37:19,725 --> 00:37:22,037
depends on your business. If you're an E commerce

764
00:37:22,061 --> 00:37:23,891
site, you know, if you're a direct to consumer

765
00:37:23,923 --> 00:37:26,419
site, you need that traffic. But you know, if

766
00:37:26,427 --> 00:37:28,139
you're putting thought leadership up there, or if

767
00:37:28,147 --> 00:37:30,219
you're a B2B company or you know, an

768
00:37:30,227 --> 00:37:34,083
organization, if that's where the transaction

769
00:37:34,139 --> 00:37:36,235
takes place, then you need to definitely need a

770
00:37:36,235 --> 00:37:41,619
lot more foot traffic. But the value of the owned

771
00:37:41,667 --> 00:37:44,571
is not necessarily in the traffic. That was a big

772
00:37:44,603 --> 00:37:45,375
aha.

773
00:37:46,355 --> 00:37:50,461
Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, for sure. Because Google and

774
00:37:50,533 --> 00:37:52,645
ChatGPT are no longer sending traffic to your

775
00:37:52,685 --> 00:37:54,389
website. So you have to figure something else

776
00:37:54,437 --> 00:37:58,053
out. Right. And we've had to for sure iterate. I

777
00:37:58,069 --> 00:37:59,941
also think people got burned. You know, people

778
00:38:00,013 --> 00:38:02,213
invested in vine, people invested in Google,

779
00:38:02,309 --> 00:38:05,345
people invested in Clubhouse, and all of those

780
00:38:06,165 --> 00:38:10,981
went like literally overnight went dead. And

781
00:38:11,013 --> 00:38:12,685
people lost their content, they lost their

782
00:38:12,725 --> 00:38:15,965
followings, they lost their audiences. And so

783
00:38:16,005 --> 00:38:20,333
people are now finally understanding that to not

784
00:38:20,389 --> 00:38:24,637
go through that crisis and to own your audience,

785
00:38:24,741 --> 00:38:26,709
you should have it on something that you own,

786
00:38:26,757 --> 00:38:27,905
that you can control.

787
00:38:29,085 --> 00:38:31,533
Dan Nestle: Yeah. And that brings us back to community in

788
00:38:31,549 --> 00:38:34,677
some ways or in every way really. Because the

789
00:38:34,701 --> 00:38:36,965
people who come to your website or to your

790
00:38:37,005 --> 00:38:39,661
property and stay there and hang around and sign

791
00:38:39,693 --> 00:38:42,197
up for your emails and like, if you have a

792
00:38:42,221 --> 00:38:46,925
community, like some platform or conversation for

793
00:38:46,965 --> 00:38:49,029
interaction, if you're that kind of an

794
00:38:49,037 --> 00:38:50,901
organization, they'll stay there, they'll go

795
00:38:50,933 --> 00:38:54,029
there, and then they're yours. Yep. You know, so

796
00:38:54,077 --> 00:38:56,845
building. Building community seems to be the,

797
00:38:56,965 --> 00:38:59,865
probably the ultimate goal now rather than,

798
00:39:00,165 --> 00:39:04,365
rather than kind of spreading everything out and

799
00:39:04,525 --> 00:39:08,545
chasing down audiences that might or might not be

800
00:39:08,955 --> 00:39:10,495
affinity audiences.

801
00:39:11,075 --> 00:39:13,515
Gini Dietrich: I mean, I think it's always been the goal is to

802
00:39:13,635 --> 00:39:17,051
build your brand, brand loyalists and give them

803
00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:19,659
the tools they need to help tell your story. I

804
00:39:19,667 --> 00:39:21,027
think that's always been the goal. It's just the

805
00:39:21,051 --> 00:39:21,923
tools of change.

806
00:39:22,059 --> 00:39:23,707
Dan Nestle: Yeah, that's another one of those things that

807
00:39:23,731 --> 00:39:27,135
come full circle. People talk about community.

808
00:39:27,435 --> 00:39:30,003
Our friend Mark Schaeffer is always a big

809
00:39:30,059 --> 00:39:33,977
proponent of community. And community is the

810
00:39:34,091 --> 00:39:39,429
future of marketing. He said before it's. I

811
00:39:39,437 --> 00:39:41,853
can't. I don't doubt that there are so many

812
00:39:41,909 --> 00:39:48,613
communities and I, I think comms, PR has, you

813
00:39:48,629 --> 00:39:50,869
know, they're all. Let me back. They're always

814
00:39:50,917 --> 00:39:53,261
talking about it like, they mean like marketing

815
00:39:53,293 --> 00:39:55,477
people are always talking about it from. The

816
00:39:55,501 --> 00:39:56,973
future of marketing is community. And that's

817
00:39:56,989 --> 00:39:59,053
where marketers need to go back. I actually think

818
00:39:59,069 --> 00:40:02,329
that columns is the place to make those

819
00:40:02,377 --> 00:40:04,577
relationships, to build those communities and to

820
00:40:04,601 --> 00:40:09,457
make relationships with people that matter more

821
00:40:09,481 --> 00:40:11,337
Than anything else. We have a huge role to play

822
00:40:11,361 --> 00:40:16,165
in that. Peso is, I believe, the key to that.

823
00:40:16,825 --> 00:40:17,585
Prove me wrong.

824
00:40:17,665 --> 00:40:20,993
Gini Dietrich: I think it's. I kind of look at it this way.

825
00:40:21,089 --> 00:40:25,273
Communicators are, by trade, relationship

826
00:40:25,329 --> 00:40:29,985
builders. We're messengers. We build the trust

827
00:40:30,025 --> 00:40:32,169
and we build the authority. And marketers by

828
00:40:32,217 --> 00:40:36,313
trade. Our features and benefits, products, like,

829
00:40:36,489 --> 00:40:38,689
here's why you should care kinds of things about

830
00:40:38,737 --> 00:40:42,565
our product or service. They work together. But

831
00:40:44,025 --> 00:40:46,769
from my perspective, marketing doesn't build the

832
00:40:46,817 --> 00:40:48,881
relationships with people to then buy the

833
00:40:48,913 --> 00:40:51,761
product. Yeah, communications builds the

834
00:40:51,793 --> 00:40:53,841
relationships with people, and then marketing

835
00:40:53,953 --> 00:40:55,753
explains the features and benefits and why they

836
00:40:55,769 --> 00:40:58,873
should buy. So it's really. They work together in

837
00:40:58,889 --> 00:41:01,273
a really seamless way, but they still have their

838
00:41:01,329 --> 00:41:03,637
own fiefdoms, so to speak.

839
00:41:03,701 --> 00:41:07,301
Dan Nestle: Yeah, I mean, different organizations, kind of

840
00:41:07,333 --> 00:41:09,333
smaller organizations might have a blurry line or

841
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:10,877
might have just one department to do, which is

842
00:41:10,901 --> 00:41:16,973
great. Yeah. But I think you're right. And I

843
00:41:16,989 --> 00:41:19,397
don't know, all this stuff is changing so

844
00:41:19,421 --> 00:41:23,301
rapidly, and it's so fast, it's nuts. So which

845
00:41:23,373 --> 00:41:26,317
is. Which is my way of sort of asking you or

846
00:41:26,381 --> 00:41:29,663
switching, diving in a little bit more to some of

847
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:32,223
the more recent ways that you're evolving the

848
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,375
model and also what you're seeing out there,

849
00:41:34,415 --> 00:41:36,999
because you have been really, really active in

850
00:41:37,007 --> 00:41:43,391
the AI and comms space so much so I think that

851
00:41:43,543 --> 00:41:45,695
sometimes when I'm ready to kind of talk about

852
00:41:45,735 --> 00:41:48,155
something or write something, you beat me to it.

853
00:41:48,575 --> 00:41:51,399
I don't know. Nine times out of ten. Ah, shit.

854
00:41:51,487 --> 00:41:56,079
That's exactly what I wanted to say. So, like,

855
00:41:56,127 --> 00:41:58,895
you know, we're surfing the same waves, and it's

856
00:41:58,935 --> 00:42:02,207
really great, but, you know, you're seeing a lot

857
00:42:02,231 --> 00:42:04,487
of it from a different perspective, and you're

858
00:42:04,511 --> 00:42:07,511
seeing the way that your clients are using or

859
00:42:07,543 --> 00:42:09,711
adapting to AI or objecting to AI. You're hearing

860
00:42:09,743 --> 00:42:12,223
a lot more from your large audience about it and

861
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:13,447
from your own community. I should have mentioned

862
00:42:13,471 --> 00:42:15,795
there's a great spine sex community, by the way.

863
00:42:16,335 --> 00:42:18,095
But from within the community, people talk about

864
00:42:18,135 --> 00:42:22,591
it. So let's look at AI and peso or AI and comms.

865
00:42:22,623 --> 00:42:25,373
Maybe it's the same thing. You know, first of

866
00:42:25,389 --> 00:42:28,389
all, like, top line, what are you seeing as the

867
00:42:28,437 --> 00:42:34,557
main kind of areas that AI is infiltrating or

868
00:42:34,581 --> 00:42:37,893
that we should be enhancing or adapting, you

869
00:42:37,909 --> 00:42:41,105
know, to enhance our ability to be communicators?

870
00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:51,623
Gini Dietrich: AI is giving us time. It's giving us more time in

871
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:57,555
our day. It's making us more productive. And so

872
00:42:58,335 --> 00:43:02,847
when we refresh the model in January, really, we

873
00:43:02,871 --> 00:43:05,791
Were only looking at AI from an owned media

874
00:43:05,863 --> 00:43:07,839
perspective. And I think that has massively

875
00:43:07,927 --> 00:43:10,871
changed this year. We're going to refresh again

876
00:43:10,903 --> 00:43:13,863
in January of 2025, which is crazy because we

877
00:43:13,919 --> 00:43:15,919
used to go two or three years between refreshes

878
00:43:15,967 --> 00:43:18,035
and now we're having to do it every six months.

879
00:43:19,655 --> 00:43:21,447
But that's one of the big changes that we'll make

880
00:43:21,471 --> 00:43:24,767
in January, which is it now infiltrates the

881
00:43:24,791 --> 00:43:29,351
entire model. And a lot of the work that you do

882
00:43:29,383 --> 00:43:31,391
through the framework to be able to integrate and

883
00:43:31,423 --> 00:43:35,463
ensure that you're creating measurable work can

884
00:43:35,479 --> 00:43:38,399
be done by AI. And sometimes it's data

885
00:43:38,447 --> 00:43:40,687
collection, sometimes it's data analysis,

886
00:43:40,751 --> 00:43:43,391
sometimes it's drafting outlines of content,

887
00:43:43,463 --> 00:43:45,743
sometimes it's giving you ideas for social media

888
00:43:45,799 --> 00:43:48,023
posts, sometimes it's looking at your creative

889
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:50,827
and saying, ah, what about this? One of my

890
00:43:50,851 --> 00:43:52,363
favorite things to do is I mentioned that I'm

891
00:43:52,379 --> 00:43:56,255
writing the second edition of Spin sucks. And so

892
00:43:56,795 --> 00:43:59,227
I put all of the content from the first book into

893
00:43:59,331 --> 00:44:02,267
a Claude project. I put the table of contents in

894
00:44:02,291 --> 00:44:05,171
there. And then as I'm writing, I put the

895
00:44:05,203 --> 00:44:07,691
chapters in and I will say to it, okay, I just

896
00:44:07,723 --> 00:44:11,611
finished chapter three. Here it is. Please look

897
00:44:11,643 --> 00:44:13,715
at the table of contents. Please read chapters

898
00:44:13,755 --> 00:44:16,211
one and two and tell me what I'm missing or if

899
00:44:16,243 --> 00:44:17,449
anything's confusing.

900
00:44:17,547 --> 00:44:17,949
Dan Nestle: Love it.

901
00:44:17,997 --> 00:44:20,301
Gini Dietrich: And it gives me like every, it always compliments

902
00:44:20,333 --> 00:44:21,669
me. It's always like, this is a really.

903
00:44:21,717 --> 00:44:21,949
Dan Nestle: Right.

904
00:44:21,997 --> 00:44:24,277
Gini Dietrich: And then, and then it says here four, four or

905
00:44:24,301 --> 00:44:28,301
five things that I think you should add. And most

906
00:44:28,333 --> 00:44:30,893
of the time they're pretty good suggestions, you

907
00:44:30,909 --> 00:44:34,741
know, so it's like having an editor sitting next

908
00:44:34,773 --> 00:44:38,385
to you who can give you instantaneous comments.

909
00:44:39,085 --> 00:44:41,957
And, and then you do it and then you go back and

910
00:44:41,981 --> 00:44:44,189
say, okay, I've incorporated this. What do you

911
00:44:44,237 --> 00:44:46,563
think? And it'll be like, well, this transition

912
00:44:46,619 --> 00:44:49,523
is kind of wonky. Or do you want me to. And, and

913
00:44:49,619 --> 00:44:52,395
I mean, I think it's making it a much better

914
00:44:52,475 --> 00:44:55,067
book. And the same thing. We're doing the same

915
00:44:55,091 --> 00:44:57,115
thing right now with subject matter experts.

916
00:44:57,155 --> 00:45:00,539
Well, there. And they'll. We use leaps to, to, to

917
00:45:00,587 --> 00:45:02,931
interview them. So we get, we ask them questions.

918
00:45:02,963 --> 00:45:05,323
They, we get the answers back and then we take

919
00:45:05,339 --> 00:45:08,155
the answers and we draft some content and then we

920
00:45:08,195 --> 00:45:11,171
throw the answers that the SME gave us and the

921
00:45:11,203 --> 00:45:14,615
content into ChatGPT and say, did we incorporate

922
00:45:14,655 --> 00:45:17,431
their answers well? And sometimes it'll say,

923
00:45:17,463 --> 00:45:19,775
well, you forgot this. Or, you know, they, they

924
00:45:19,815 --> 00:45:21,735
phrased it this way, but you changed the wording

925
00:45:21,775 --> 00:45:25,447
and it gives you all of that in seconds. So it's

926
00:45:25,471 --> 00:45:28,495
just. It's just. It's giving you more time. It's

927
00:45:28,535 --> 00:45:29,955
making you more efficient.

928
00:45:31,735 --> 00:45:34,127
Dan Nestle: Yeah, it's. It's certainly taking on a lot of

929
00:45:34,151 --> 00:45:36,663
those tasks and giving you a team where you

930
00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:38,367
didn't have a team before, giving you all these

931
00:45:38,391 --> 00:45:42,615
kind of expanded capabilities. I'm a little bit

932
00:45:44,635 --> 00:45:47,955
not suspicious. That's not the word. But I feel

933
00:45:47,995 --> 00:45:53,555
like our tendency is to fill space. So as we free

934
00:45:53,595 --> 00:45:55,475
up time, that time is going to get filled very

935
00:45:55,515 --> 00:46:00,211
quickly for sure. So it's not like it's giving

936
00:46:00,243 --> 00:46:03,051
you time to take a vacation. It's giving you time

937
00:46:03,083 --> 00:46:04,371
to do more stuff.

938
00:46:04,443 --> 00:46:08,047
Gini Dietrich: More stuff like write your book faster or write

939
00:46:08,071 --> 00:46:10,343
your book faster. It's like for every single one

940
00:46:10,359 --> 00:46:12,423
of our clients, we have the Popcorn list, that we

941
00:46:12,439 --> 00:46:15,311
call it, because I had a boss early in my career

942
00:46:15,343 --> 00:46:17,735
who loved Faith Popcorn, and she would say, okay,

943
00:46:17,775 --> 00:46:20,607
everybody put your ideas on the Popcorn list. And

944
00:46:20,711 --> 00:46:23,223
so it stuck. But the Popcorn list is all the

945
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,471
stuff we'd love to get to eventually, but just

946
00:46:25,503 --> 00:46:28,103
haven't had the time or strategy has changed or

947
00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:30,031
whatever. And so we can go back to the Popcorn

948
00:46:30,063 --> 00:46:32,097
list and say to clients, hey, you know, we talked

949
00:46:32,121 --> 00:46:33,969
about doing this. What do you think about

950
00:46:34,017 --> 00:46:36,441
incorporating it now? Because we have the time.

951
00:46:36,633 --> 00:46:42,601
Dan Nestle: Yeah. That's a very positive effect, certainly,

952
00:46:42,713 --> 00:46:45,081
of AI, and I'm quite positive about it and

953
00:46:45,113 --> 00:46:47,593
bullish on it. When you look at the Peso model,

954
00:46:47,609 --> 00:46:49,497
you said that it's infiltrating everywhere, and

955
00:46:49,561 --> 00:46:52,609
you kind of ran through a few examples, but do

956
00:46:52,617 --> 00:46:55,033
you have any, like, real specifics for each of

957
00:46:55,049 --> 00:46:59,133
the quadrants or each of the. Each of the pesos,

958
00:46:59,219 --> 00:47:02,105
where, like, there's a specific AI tool that's.

959
00:47:02,185 --> 00:47:04,745
That's useful or that you've used, or if there's

960
00:47:04,785 --> 00:47:07,969
any, you know, specific use cases around that, if

961
00:47:07,977 --> 00:47:09,889
you can discuss a few of them, that would be

962
00:47:10,017 --> 00:47:11,793
awesome. We'd like to have a lot of big takeaways.

963
00:47:11,929 --> 00:47:16,841
Gini Dietrich: Oh, man. So the answer to that is. It depends.

964
00:47:16,913 --> 00:47:20,417
Yeah, of course. And what I have learned in the

965
00:47:20,441 --> 00:47:22,561
last year is that lots and lots of organizations

966
00:47:22,633 --> 00:47:25,643
are not allowing teams to use certain things. So

967
00:47:25,659 --> 00:47:27,811
they might be able to use ChatGPT, or they might

968
00:47:27,843 --> 00:47:29,563
be able to use Jasper, or they might be able to

969
00:47:29,579 --> 00:47:32,419
use Claude, but they can't use it all in tandem.

970
00:47:32,467 --> 00:47:36,683
So with those things as the caveat, as you know,

971
00:47:36,699 --> 00:47:41,275
I love Notebook LM for, like, taking a podcast

972
00:47:41,355 --> 00:47:45,299
interview and creating different assets from it.

973
00:47:45,387 --> 00:47:46,055
Dan Nestle: Yeah.

974
00:47:46,395 --> 00:47:48,611
Gini Dietrich: So I love it for that. But also, we do a lot of

975
00:47:48,643 --> 00:47:53,303
online courses and so I'll throw our scripts into

976
00:47:53,399 --> 00:47:57,175
Notebook LM and I'll ask it to do frequently

977
00:47:57,215 --> 00:47:59,623
asked questions and I'll also ask it to create

978
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:01,663
assessment questions. So quiz questions. So it

979
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:06,271
does that really well. I personally love Claude.

980
00:48:06,463 --> 00:48:09,383
My two go to every day is Claude plus ChatGPT

981
00:48:09,479 --> 00:48:12,151
just because I do a lot of content creation. So

982
00:48:12,183 --> 00:48:15,007
those two are my favorite. I love WALDO at the

983
00:48:15,031 --> 00:48:17,663
beginning of programs because you can use it for

984
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,231
research and competitive analysis on things. It's

985
00:48:21,263 --> 00:48:25,663
always. It's also really great for just

986
00:48:25,759 --> 00:48:28,271
understanding an industry really well. So yeah,

987
00:48:28,343 --> 00:48:33,663
research from that perspective. I love Otter of

988
00:48:33,679 --> 00:48:38,287
course for meeting notes. What else do I use?

989
00:48:38,431 --> 00:48:40,503
Those are probably the big ones. I know what I

990
00:48:40,519 --> 00:48:42,127
know. I have a couple of friends who really like

991
00:48:42,151 --> 00:48:44,383
Jasper over Claude. So I think it just depends on

992
00:48:44,399 --> 00:48:45,155
what you're.

993
00:48:45,665 --> 00:48:48,777
Dan Nestle: I mean Jasper has its own LLM, right? Oh no,

994
00:48:48,801 --> 00:48:52,529
Rider has its own LLM. I think Jasper's using. I

995
00:48:52,537 --> 00:48:54,241
don't know if it has. Does Jasper have its own

996
00:48:54,273 --> 00:48:56,481
proprietary LLM? I don't know, I don't remember.

997
00:48:56,553 --> 00:49:01,057
Good question. Writer has its own or it's based

998
00:49:01,081 --> 00:49:04,985
on. Is it Mistral? I forget. Anyway, Rider is not

999
00:49:05,025 --> 00:49:09,265
based on OpenAI. It's based on something else and

1000
00:49:09,345 --> 00:49:12,269
it has different. It's almost like pre made

1001
00:49:12,317 --> 00:49:18,573
prompts and use cases which is really useful. I'm

1002
00:49:18,589 --> 00:49:22,973
with you on Claude and ChatGPT. ChatGPT, it's

1003
00:49:22,989 --> 00:49:26,469
just so broad and they keep adding these

1004
00:49:26,637 --> 00:49:30,221
wonderful features, some not so great that go

1005
00:49:30,253 --> 00:49:33,665
away but they're going to keep experimenting. But

1006
00:49:34,125 --> 00:49:36,229
I work with both of them. I love Claude projects

1007
00:49:36,277 --> 00:49:44,231
just like. And Notebook LM has just wowed me with

1008
00:49:44,263 --> 00:49:46,383
a new capability that I didn't have. I don't

1009
00:49:46,399 --> 00:49:50,935
think it writes particularly well, but you

1010
00:49:50,975 --> 00:49:55,719
mentioned taking a podcast and pulling out, doing

1011
00:49:55,847 --> 00:49:59,995
a lesson about it from Notebook LM generating Q&A

1012
00:50:01,935 --> 00:50:05,597
when Notebook LM came out. And you know, you know

1013
00:50:05,621 --> 00:50:08,341
this because you were the recipient slash victim

1014
00:50:08,373 --> 00:50:11,413
of this from my standpoint. But I, you know I, I

1015
00:50:11,429 --> 00:50:14,117
saw it, I was like, I was like, oh, I can build a

1016
00:50:14,141 --> 00:50:18,317
peso notebook. And I immediately told you about

1017
00:50:18,341 --> 00:50:21,813
it. You know, I sent you the information but I

1018
00:50:21,949 --> 00:50:24,781
took the liberty before, before the show like,

1019
00:50:24,813 --> 00:50:27,293
of, of checking out my peso notebook and you

1020
00:50:27,309 --> 00:50:29,189
know, getting a little bit more, just refreshing

1021
00:50:29,237 --> 00:50:30,997
myself a little bit on it. It was really useful

1022
00:50:31,021 --> 00:50:32,333
for that because I have, I'm sure.

1023
00:50:32,389 --> 00:50:33,389
Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it's great.

1024
00:50:33,477 --> 00:50:35,781
Dan Nestle: And for, for our, for our listeners. What all I

1025
00:50:35,813 --> 00:50:38,173
did was, you know, you can add if you're not

1026
00:50:38,189 --> 00:50:42,005
familiar with Notebook LM You. You basically

1027
00:50:42,085 --> 00:50:45,237
create a walled garden that becomes your own

1028
00:50:45,261 --> 00:50:48,345
little research database, slash, language model.

1029
00:50:48,645 --> 00:50:51,029
And into that walled garden, you're allowed to.

1030
00:50:51,157 --> 00:50:54,597
It allows you to add up to 50 sources. The

1031
00:50:54,621 --> 00:50:58,221
sources are various types. It's all in there. And

1032
00:50:58,253 --> 00:51:01,707
they can be fairly large. The, you know, the

1033
00:51:01,891 --> 00:51:03,915
context window or the amount that we can include.

1034
00:51:03,995 --> 00:51:05,811
The amount of data that can be included is

1035
00:51:05,883 --> 00:51:09,483
massive on Notebook LLM. So I went. I took like

1036
00:51:09,539 --> 00:51:14,451
21 or 22 of Genie's own website pages. It's all

1037
00:51:14,483 --> 00:51:17,003
like. It's all like, you know, spinstocks.com

1038
00:51:17,099 --> 00:51:21,091
this and, you know, I just. Some of it's like the

1039
00:51:21,123 --> 00:51:24,235
guide to peso models. Some of it's the old

1040
00:51:24,275 --> 00:51:28,125
vehicle. And I had to do a study guide just

1041
00:51:28,165 --> 00:51:31,301
before. Come on. So, Jeannie, what is the

1042
00:51:31,333 --> 00:51:33,149
relationship between paid media and own media

1043
00:51:33,197 --> 00:51:37,941
within the model framework? It has questions and

1044
00:51:37,973 --> 00:51:39,413
answers. So funny.

1045
00:51:39,509 --> 00:51:40,573
Gini Dietrich: Oh, it has answers too.

1046
00:51:40,629 --> 00:51:41,517
Dan Nestle: Yeah, it's great.

1047
00:51:41,581 --> 00:51:42,225
Gini Dietrich: Yeah.

1048
00:51:42,925 --> 00:51:45,293
Dan Nestle: Jimmy Dietrich emphasizes that content should

1049
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:47,917
live on something you own. What does she mean by

1050
00:51:47,941 --> 00:51:49,845
this? And why is it important? So you get these

1051
00:51:49,885 --> 00:51:51,565
great, These great questions.

1052
00:51:51,605 --> 00:51:53,141
Gini Dietrich: And by the way, I'm glad I'm consistent.

1053
00:51:53,213 --> 00:51:55,285
Dan Nestle: Oh, yeah. But, you know, by the way, it's like,

1054
00:51:55,325 --> 00:51:56,877
it's so funny. And in fact, every time you

1055
00:51:56,901 --> 00:51:58,709
generate one, there's a new, new list. But this

1056
00:51:58,717 --> 00:52:00,373
is a. This is a study. This is a quiz from the

1057
00:52:00,389 --> 00:52:03,625
study graph. It's a study guide, you know, and

1058
00:52:04,405 --> 00:52:06,397
why is the. Maybe you can answer this one,

1059
00:52:06,421 --> 00:52:09,325
Jeannie. Why is the order of the media types in

1060
00:52:09,365 --> 00:52:13,021
peso acronyms significant, even if it may not

1061
00:52:13,053 --> 00:52:15,421
reflect the order of implementation? I'm sensing

1062
00:52:15,453 --> 00:52:16,505
a hallucination here.

1063
00:52:16,605 --> 00:52:21,017
Gini Dietrich: But it's not significant. It's only created that

1064
00:52:21,041 --> 00:52:22,601
way because it's easy to remember.

1065
00:52:22,753 --> 00:52:26,865
Dan Nestle: Well, I think you're wrong. It says, while some

1066
00:52:26,905 --> 00:52:29,457
argue for prioritizing other media types first,

1067
00:52:29,481 --> 00:52:32,401
the peso acronym representing paid, earned,

1068
00:52:32,433 --> 00:52:34,001
shared and known media, is designed for

1069
00:52:34,033 --> 00:52:37,577
memorability. This reflects a key branding

1070
00:52:37,641 --> 00:52:40,497
principle. A catchy and easily remembered name

1071
00:52:40,641 --> 00:52:42,593
contributes to its effectiveness and wider

1072
00:52:42,649 --> 00:52:45,243
adoption. So future, remember, you see, there you

1073
00:52:45,259 --> 00:52:48,059
go. But it's very interesting. It pulls out all

1074
00:52:48,067 --> 00:52:51,315
this information. And so I love. I love Notebook

1075
00:52:51,355 --> 00:52:55,027
lm. I. I do use it for. For a lot of content that

1076
00:52:55,051 --> 00:52:58,675
I create to give me a baseline. And I find it

1077
00:52:58,715 --> 00:53:01,707
really good for the owned part, for sure. Like,

1078
00:53:01,731 --> 00:53:05,763
forget. For building out my own content. You

1079
00:53:05,779 --> 00:53:09,443
know, that the. The part where I am not as I

1080
00:53:09,459 --> 00:53:15,557
think maybe as deep in, is in the paid side.

1081
00:53:15,701 --> 00:53:18,933
Right. So, yeah, you know, what are the tools out

1082
00:53:18,949 --> 00:53:21,509
there? Like I understand conceptually and I have

1083
00:53:21,557 --> 00:53:25,277
done analysis of, of, you know, I'll get, I'll

1084
00:53:25,301 --> 00:53:29,061
get traffic data and I'll get pricing or I'll get

1085
00:53:29,213 --> 00:53:31,237
advertising data, whatever. And I can drop, drop

1086
00:53:31,261 --> 00:53:35,373
it into any of the AI tools and get some analyses

1087
00:53:35,429 --> 00:53:38,945
and highlight, you know, highlight where, like

1088
00:53:38,985 --> 00:53:42,005
either opportunities or flaws in the programs.

1089
00:53:42,985 --> 00:53:45,425
But are you using, are you seeing any great uses

1090
00:53:45,465 --> 00:53:47,489
for it in the paid side apart from like ad

1091
00:53:47,537 --> 00:53:48,245
generation?

1092
00:53:49,865 --> 00:53:53,185
Gini Dietrich: That's probably the big one. I know my team will

1093
00:53:53,225 --> 00:53:57,977
use it to throw creative in to see if there are

1094
00:53:58,001 --> 00:54:00,457
any challenges with it, like anything, anything

1095
00:54:00,481 --> 00:54:03,737
that our biases might prevent us from seeing. So

1096
00:54:03,761 --> 00:54:05,785
they use it for that a lot. They use it for

1097
00:54:05,905 --> 00:54:07,889
headline generation just to see if it will come

1098
00:54:07,897 --> 00:54:09,961
up with anything that they haven't thought of

1099
00:54:09,993 --> 00:54:14,065
yet. I think they do sometimes use it just to

1100
00:54:14,105 --> 00:54:16,777
say, hey, what kind of graphic would you use for

1101
00:54:16,801 --> 00:54:20,129
this? So they do get those kinds of ideas too.

1102
00:54:20,177 --> 00:54:22,177
But I think those are probably the three main

1103
00:54:22,201 --> 00:54:22,953
ways that you do it.

1104
00:54:22,969 --> 00:54:25,225
Dan Nestle: Yeah, I love the idea of synthetic data like

1105
00:54:25,265 --> 00:54:30,535
creating, essentially creating Personas as

1106
00:54:30,575 --> 00:54:32,799
focused and then building a focus group of those

1107
00:54:32,847 --> 00:54:36,215
Personas and then testing your ideas against

1108
00:54:36,255 --> 00:54:38,367
those. And, you know, whether that falls under

1109
00:54:38,391 --> 00:54:41,559
the P or the, or the kind of precursor to

1110
00:54:41,687 --> 00:54:43,943
creating owned content or whatever is I think up

1111
00:54:43,959 --> 00:54:46,007
to you. But it's amazing though. The point is

1112
00:54:46,031 --> 00:54:49,031
that all that AI is changing everything. So cool.

1113
00:54:49,183 --> 00:54:51,351
It's embedding itself into all of our, into the

1114
00:54:51,383 --> 00:54:56,861
model. You know, I just, you know, I think that

1115
00:54:56,893 --> 00:54:59,493
there's like, there's just so much to get into

1116
00:54:59,549 --> 00:55:04,949
with this. And if you had to, like, you know, I

1117
00:55:04,957 --> 00:55:08,029
think a lot of people listen are probably, you

1118
00:55:08,037 --> 00:55:10,437
know, AI. I wouldn't say people are all AI

1119
00:55:10,461 --> 00:55:11,933
advanced, but they're listening for some hints

1120
00:55:11,949 --> 00:55:14,573
and for some, for some clues. And you gave a

1121
00:55:14,589 --> 00:55:17,957
couple of good tools here. Jack D. Claude Waldo

1122
00:55:18,061 --> 00:55:21,077
Otter. By the way, I am a Fireflies AI, not an

1123
00:55:21,101 --> 00:55:21,829
otter person.

1124
00:55:21,917 --> 00:55:22,613
Gini Dietrich: Okay.

1125
00:55:22,789 --> 00:55:25,821
Dan Nestle: But just by happenstance, not by necessarily

1126
00:55:25,893 --> 00:55:29,573
preference. They're both great tools. But I

1127
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:32,429
wanted to ask you, I suppose, like, you know, if

1128
00:55:32,437 --> 00:55:34,357
there's like three things that people should be

1129
00:55:34,381 --> 00:55:36,981
doing right now in the communications world,

1130
00:55:37,093 --> 00:55:44,085
especially with AI and the peso model, like, you

1131
00:55:44,085 --> 00:55:46,445
know, it's all intertwined, all interconnected.

1132
00:55:46,605 --> 00:55:48,345
Right. What are those three things?

1133
00:55:49,575 --> 00:55:54,519
Gini Dietrich: I would say it's really use it. Just play with it

1134
00:55:54,607 --> 00:55:56,791
and get comfortable with it because the more you

1135
00:55:56,863 --> 00:56:01,559
use it, the more you understand its value. And as

1136
00:56:01,607 --> 00:56:04,703
you do that, consider it an intern. So just like

1137
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,775
you have to do with an intern you have to

1138
00:56:06,815 --> 00:56:09,975
educate, you have to say, this isn't quite right,

1139
00:56:10,015 --> 00:56:13,207
and here's why. Do that with your AI tool of

1140
00:56:13,231 --> 00:56:15,431
choice, because it will get better and better and

1141
00:56:15,463 --> 00:56:18,335
better. You mentioned earlier that there's a

1142
00:56:18,335 --> 00:56:20,839
couple of words that you don't want your AI

1143
00:56:20,887 --> 00:56:23,191
using. Mine is impact. Please do not use the word

1144
00:56:23,223 --> 00:56:27,927
impact so you can train it to do those kinds of

1145
00:56:27,951 --> 00:56:30,711
things. And one of the things I've noticed, I

1146
00:56:30,743 --> 00:56:33,975
have to consistently tell it to write in

1147
00:56:34,015 --> 00:56:35,591
narrative prose because it loves to give me

1148
00:56:35,623 --> 00:56:37,391
lists. I don't want a fricking list.

1149
00:56:37,543 --> 00:56:41,103
Dan Nestle: Yeah, yeah. I love cloud projects for that, by

1150
00:56:41,119 --> 00:56:43,793
the way, because when you, when you create a

1151
00:56:43,809 --> 00:56:46,121
Claude project, you set the writing style, you

1152
00:56:46,153 --> 00:56:48,409
set the tone, you set some prompts. That's

1153
00:56:48,457 --> 00:56:52,417
beautiful. Well, look, we're really kind of

1154
00:56:52,441 --> 00:56:54,801
getting up on it and I know that. I'm so grateful

1155
00:56:54,833 --> 00:56:57,681
for your time, Jimmy. You're so generous, given

1156
00:56:57,713 --> 00:57:00,921
that you are, as I said, a PR legend. And I tried

1157
00:57:00,953 --> 00:57:03,369
to refrain as much from gushing over you, but I

1158
00:57:03,377 --> 00:57:07,233
might have failed. The last thing I'm going to

1159
00:57:07,249 --> 00:57:09,945
ask you is basically one last two parter. First,

1160
00:57:09,985 --> 00:57:11,577
is there anything I didn't ask you that you

1161
00:57:11,601 --> 00:57:14,573
wanted to talk about? And the second is. Second

1162
00:57:14,629 --> 00:57:17,453
is, is there anything keeping you up at night,

1163
00:57:17,549 --> 00:57:20,221
like in a good way or bad way, about the future

1164
00:57:20,253 --> 00:57:21,265
of communications?

1165
00:57:21,565 --> 00:57:24,053
Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, there is something keeping me up at

1166
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:25,301
night, but I don't know if it's about the future

1167
00:57:25,333 --> 00:57:27,413
of communications. It's how much protein can I

1168
00:57:27,429 --> 00:57:29,197
get into my body to grow muscles.

1169
00:57:29,301 --> 00:57:31,845
Dan Nestle: Oh, yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

1170
00:57:31,965 --> 00:57:34,309
You can ask Chad. You can ask about. Well, you

1171
00:57:34,317 --> 00:57:36,465
know, you can ask Perplexity now. There's a.

1172
00:57:37,205 --> 00:57:39,661
Perplexity now has expanded. It's. It's its

1173
00:57:39,693 --> 00:57:41,373
capabilities. And there's now Perplexity

1174
00:57:41,429 --> 00:57:44,773
shopping. So you can, you can use Perplexity to

1175
00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:47,933
do an intense search about, you know, the science

1176
00:57:47,989 --> 00:57:51,125
behind muscular growth and then at the same time

1177
00:57:51,165 --> 00:57:53,181
find the exact protein powders you need.

1178
00:57:53,333 --> 00:57:54,145
Wonderful.

1179
00:57:55,405 --> 00:57:58,181
Gini Dietrich: What I have right here, protein powder.

1180
00:57:58,253 --> 00:58:01,813
Dan Nestle: Yeah. So. So health is, is. Is on your mind. It's

1181
00:58:01,829 --> 00:58:02,461
a good thing, health.

1182
00:58:02,493 --> 00:58:08,055
Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Growing muscles. For me, it's less

1183
00:58:08,095 --> 00:58:11,435
about the future of communications and more about

1184
00:58:12,055 --> 00:58:15,479
how to continue to evolve this. So it makes sense

1185
00:58:15,567 --> 00:58:19,463
for every type of organization, every size of

1186
00:58:19,479 --> 00:58:21,895
organization, and especially coming up to the

1187
00:58:21,935 --> 00:58:23,623
first of the year, which is when we're going to

1188
00:58:23,639 --> 00:58:25,735
relaunch all of this stuff, that's where I'm

1189
00:58:25,775 --> 00:58:28,495
spending a lot of time. So it's kind of looking

1190
00:58:28,535 --> 00:58:30,915
into the crystal ball a little bit to understand

1191
00:58:31,985 --> 00:58:35,209
what could be coming. Reading the research and

1192
00:58:35,257 --> 00:58:38,305
understanding, I'd love to see Gallup do a second

1193
00:58:38,345 --> 00:58:42,409
poll on where the media trust is right now post

1194
00:58:42,457 --> 00:58:45,097
election, but it's that kind of stuff. How is

1195
00:58:45,121 --> 00:58:50,849
this going to evolve? What are the economic

1196
00:58:50,937 --> 00:58:53,337
trends showing us that will shift a lot of what

1197
00:58:53,361 --> 00:58:55,245
we're doing and what can we expect?

1198
00:58:56,025 --> 00:59:00,097
Dan Nestle: Big questions for which of course I have no

1199
00:59:00,121 --> 00:59:03,369
answers right now, but I think everything's going

1200
00:59:03,377 --> 00:59:05,881
to. I agree with you on everything's evolving so

1201
00:59:05,913 --> 00:59:08,537
quickly. I mean, I'm very curious to see if

1202
00:59:08,561 --> 00:59:12,353
there's going to be a Peso agent created. Some

1203
00:59:12,409 --> 00:59:15,073
agentic AI is coming down very quickly, folks.

1204
00:59:15,129 --> 00:59:18,729
And if there ever was a really good use case for

1205
00:59:18,777 --> 00:59:21,337
an agent, could be a Peso one. I don't know, I'm

1206
00:59:21,361 --> 00:59:25,313
just saying might be something. I'm thinking if

1207
00:59:25,329 --> 00:59:26,945
you were a public company, I would be doing

1208
00:59:26,985 --> 00:59:31,513
something with my money. So anyway, I am. I think

1209
00:59:31,529 --> 00:59:33,417
that we have a lot to chew on here. I think

1210
00:59:33,481 --> 00:59:36,473
everybody needs to go out and go to spinsucks.com

1211
00:59:36,649 --> 00:59:38,865
where you will find information not only about

1212
00:59:38,985 --> 00:59:42,537
Genie, but also about the Peso model. You can

1213
00:59:42,561 --> 00:59:45,313
find Genie on LinkedIn, of course, Jimmy

1214
00:59:45,329 --> 00:59:47,009
Dietrich. And her name will be spelled properly

1215
00:59:47,057 --> 00:59:50,285
in the episode and notes and title of the show.

1216
00:59:50,865 --> 00:59:57,389
And you know, also you go on Twitter, Jenny, Are

1217
00:59:57,397 --> 00:59:59,181
you. Are you active on Twitter these days

1218
00:59:59,213 --> 01:00:00,145
yourself too?

1219
01:00:02,085 --> 01:00:02,825
Gini Dietrich: No.

1220
01:00:03,165 --> 01:00:06,045
Dan Nestle: Yeah, that's the typical answer. It's usually a

1221
01:00:06,085 --> 01:00:08,221
sigh followed by a.

1222
01:00:08,293 --> 01:00:12,865
Gini Dietrich: It was so great. Just is not.

1223
01:00:14,565 --> 01:00:17,181
Dan Nestle: You know, it's a. It all depends on what you're

1224
01:00:17,213 --> 01:00:20,245
looking for. And so it's one of those 12 media

1225
01:00:20,285 --> 01:00:21,821
bubbles you were talking about before, which

1226
01:00:21,853 --> 01:00:24,025
clearly means it's probably not your bubble.

1227
01:00:24,185 --> 01:00:25,761
Gini Dietrich: That is not my bubble.

1228
01:00:25,873 --> 01:00:27,481
Dan Nestle: But. But still, you know, if you are interested

1229
01:00:27,513 --> 01:00:31,177
in seeing some of the distributed content from

1230
01:00:31,201 --> 01:00:34,081
Spin Sucks, you could follow on LinkedIn, on

1231
01:00:34,113 --> 01:00:37,505
Twitter, @ spinsucks. And is there any other

1232
01:00:37,545 --> 01:00:39,017
place that people can find Jiu Jimmy that I

1233
01:00:39,041 --> 01:00:39,685
missed?

1234
01:00:40,305 --> 01:00:43,593
Gini Dietrich: Well, I just today got a Blue sky account. I

1235
01:00:43,609 --> 01:00:45,801
haven't done anything with it yet, so. But

1236
01:00:45,913 --> 01:00:47,313
Instagram, we're on Instagram too.

1237
01:00:47,369 --> 01:00:50,561
Dan Nestle: So Spin socks, Instagram. Everywhere. Spin sucks.

1238
01:00:50,633 --> 01:00:52,705
Spin sucks. Spin does suck. Everywhere. It's true.

1239
01:00:52,785 --> 01:00:53,265
Gini Dietrich: Spin sucks.

1240
01:00:53,305 --> 01:00:56,153
Dan Nestle: No spin. Be clear of the spin. Well, on that

1241
01:00:56,169 --> 01:00:57,721
note, Gini, I want to thank you so much for

1242
01:00:57,753 --> 01:01:01,481
joining me today and you know, I hope you can

1243
01:01:01,513 --> 01:01:04,625
come back again and I'm really looking forward to

1244
01:01:04,665 --> 01:01:07,865
the next edition of Peso Model.

1245
01:01:07,945 --> 01:01:08,881
Gini Dietrich: Got to get it done.

1246
01:01:08,993 --> 01:01:10,845
Dan Nestle: Yeah. Thank you.

1247
01:01:11,465 --> 01:01:12,457
Gini Dietrich: Thanks for having me.

1248
01:01:12,521 --> 01:01:21,331
Dan Nestle: Yeah, thanks for taking the time to listen in on

1249
01:01:21,363 --> 01:01:24,131
today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please

1250
01:01:24,163 --> 01:01:26,251
be sure to subscribe through the podcast player

1251
01:01:26,283 --> 01:01:28,819
of your choice. Share with your friends and

1252
01:01:28,867 --> 01:01:32,339
colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars

1253
01:01:32,467 --> 01:01:35,323
would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you

1254
01:01:35,339 --> 01:01:37,299
have ideas for future guests or you want to be on

1255
01:01:37,307 --> 01:01:39,775
the show? Let me know @dane trending

1256
01:01:39,835 --> 01:01:42,823
communicator.com thanks again for listening to

1257
01:01:42,839 --> 01:01:43,775
the trending Communicator.