114: How Emotion and Intuition are Powerful Career Tools with Sara McElroy

In this episode, Dan sits down with marketer, author, and two-time resigner turned bonafide career transition master Sara J. McElroy. Sara’s journey looks a lot like the picture of success: academic achievement followed by a steady rise in marketing and ultimately to a CMO role. But in the midst of the Great Resignation, her battles with overwork, toxic workplaces, health crises, and sexual harassment all led to two resignations, a spiritual awakening, personal empowerment, and a mission to help women find their voices and take charge of their careers. Now, as founder and CEO of Raze to Rise, she’s on a mission to “uplift the voices of women from the Great Resignation across diverse walks of life, industries, functions, and career stages” and empower women to “make bold career moves.”

She and Dan cover a lot of ground as Sara challenges conventional, “rational” career choices and argues that emotions, intuition, and physiology have a massive role to play in making life-changing decisions. Here’s a taste of what you’ll learn about through their conversation:

How and when to manage your career.
Career management is a mindset and an inside job.
The most important times in your career before making the leap.
Career transitions can be messy and it’s necessary … the Messcessary.
The life experience that prompted a life change.
The unlikely gift of Shingles.
Getting off the grid can often be the best thing.
Most professionals need more than a weekend to plot their next moves.
The critical role sexual harassment played in her life choices.
Seeing the connections of random events.
Forward-thinking themes that came from the pandemic, especially for women.
The value of self-discovery and the role it plays in balancing life.
We can have a plan, but until we experience it, we don’t know.
Missing the senses of when it’s time to move on.
How to learn and leverage body signals.
The danger of internal capitalism.

Notable Quotes:

“The moments of our careers that are most impactful are the ones that are coming in the in-between, not the big moment of turning in the resignation and walking out the door.” (4:26), Sara.
“I just had the idea that if I just follow the playbook, that perfect life playbook where you climb the ladder and chase the fancier titles and fatter paychecks, and everything will work out.” – (9:01), Sara.
“I went off to Peru and began reconnecting with the parts of me that weren’t just lost over the last couple of years and even childhood.” – (13:01), Sara.
“The lather, rinse, repeat of our current lifestyle keeps us really stuck.” – (14:40), Sara.
“Valedictorians by in large don’t become leaders.” – (19:44), Dan.
“Sexual harassment is not a style.” – (25:22), Sara.
“I felt like I could not be the only woman who was getting mired in the spin cycle of being burnout, overwhelm, toxic culture.” – (32:20), Sara.
“Designing a fulfilling career is an inside job.” (34:27), Sara.
“The expression listen to your gut is more than just a metaphor.” – (36:35), Dan.
“Our bodies are hardwired for experience of joy and bliss.” – (42:55), Sara.
“We are built to move through all of the things we’re facing in life through our senses.” – (45:19), Sara.
“In a professional world, you’re kind of like a brain, floating around in an apparatus that allows you to execute what you need to do.” – (50:40), Sara.
“We have been taught to ignore the signs that things are not working for us.” – (51:27), Sara.
“Disease is the last attempt to get our attention when we’re doing things that are not good for us.”- (51:27), Sara.
“We have the ability to feel into what we think is good.” – (54:44), Sara.
“It’s also important to meditate.” (1:01:08), Sara.
“When consequences are larger and bigger and weighs on you, you really need to tune in and listen.” – (1:07:00), Dan.
“Sometimes your employer is unable to give you what you need to grow.” – (1:10:00), Dan.

About Dan Nestle

About Sara McElroy

The key moments in this episode (as generated by my AI buddy, Capsho) are:

00:00:00 - Introduction

00:02:01 - Sarah's Career Journey and the Importance of the In-Between Moments

00:07:52 - Sarah's First Resignation and the Need for a Reset

00:12:47 - The Great Resignation and Finding Resilience

00:15:20 - The Impact of Divorce and Mental Health Issues,

00:18:07 - The Pressure of Being a Valedictorian,

00:22:51 - The Lack of a Life Roadmap,

00:25:26 - Resignation and Self-Reflection,

00:28:45 - The Journey of Personal Growth,

00:30:49 - The Journey Begins,

00:33:27 - The Power of Women's Stories,

00:35:17 - Designing a Fulfilling Career,

00:39:37 - The Unforeseen Path,

00:43:35 - The Role of Physiology,

00:47:29 - The Importance of Sensory Reactions,

00:49:10 - The Impact of Lack of Sensory Information,

00:50:59 - Ignoring Emotional and Physical Signs,

00:53:30 - Recognizing Signals and Taking Action,

00:58:15 - Using Visualization and Body Reactions,

01:02:51 - The Impact of a Job on Relationships,

01:03:30 - Measuring Readiness to Leave a Job,

01:04:58 - Balancing Rationality and Emotion in Career Decisions,

01:06:07 - Expanding and Growing Outside of Work,

01:10:30 - The Individualized Nature of Career Paths,

01:18:36 - The Impact of Self-Objectification and Internalized Capitalism,

01:19:06 - The Historical Origins of Work Culture,

01:20:25 - Challenges for Women in the Business World,

01:21:23 - Overcoming Biases and Empowering Women,

01:23:12 - Keeping an Open Mind and Trusting Yourself

Timestamped summary of this episode (also presented as generated by Capsho):

00:00:00 - Introduction to the Dan Nestle Show
Dan Nestle introduces the podcast episode and his guest, Sarah McElroy, who is a high-performing chief marketing officer turned CEO and career transition expert. They discuss the importance of managing one's career and the power of the in-between moments in career transitions.

00:02:01 - Sarah's Career Journey and the Importance of the In-Between Moments
Sarah McElroy shares her personal career journey, including a difficult divorce, job loss, and health issues. She emphasizes the significance of the in-between moments in one's career and how they can shape the direction and decisions for the future.

00:07:52 - Sarah's First Resignation and the Need for a Reset
Sarah talks about her first resignation and how it came after experiencing physical and mental health issues due to overworking. She decided to take a pause and went on a wellness retreat in Peru to reconnect with herself. This reset led her to make significant changes in her career and personal life.

00:12:47 - The Great Resignation and Finding Resilience
Sarah discusses the concept of the Great Resignation and how it has impacted many people's career decisions. She emphasizes the importance of finding resilience during challenging times and shares her own experience of quitting her job after being diagnosed with shingles. This decision allowed her to prioritize her well-being and seek a more fulfilling career path.

00:15:20 - The Impact of Divorce and Mental Health Issues,
Sara discusses how her divorce, mental health issues, and childhood trauma affected her. She shares her hospitalization and estrangement from her family, leading to feelings of worthlessness and a need to prove her value.

00:18:07 - The Pressure of Being a Valedictorian,
Sara and Dan discuss how being valedictorian can create pressure and expectations. They explore the idea that valedictorians often become followers rather than leaders, as they excel at working within a structured system.

00:22:51 - The Lack of a Life Roadmap,
Sara and Dan reflect on how the traditional notion of a life roadmap no longer applies in today's ever-changing world. They discuss the challenges faced by recent generations in navigating their careers and finding their paths.

00:25:26 - Resignation and Self-Reflection,
Sara shares her experience of resigning from her second job due to sexual harassment and feeling undervalued. She discusses how these experiences pushed her to leave corporate life and become an entrepreneur. She also recognizes her own role in choosing these environments and the need for self-reflection and healing.

00:28:45 - The Journey of Personal Growth,
Sara and Dan emphasize the value of personal growth and therapy in understanding oneself and making better choices. They discuss the importance of embracing the past and learning from experiences to shape a fulfilling career and life.

00:30:49 - The Journey Begins,
Sara reflects on her decision to leave a terrible job and the inspiration it sparked to help other women facing burnout and toxic cultures. She starts a journalism project called Raised to Rise to capture the stories and wisdom of women experiencing the great resignation.

00:33:27 - The Power of Women's Stories,
Sara realizes the universality of women's experiences during the great resignation and decides to turn Raised to Rise into a book. She wants to share the raw, messy, and inspiring stories of women to create a playbook for designing a fulfilling career.

00:35:17 - Designing a Fulfilling Career,
Sara believes that designing a fulfilling career is an inside job. Rather than solely relying on external factors like job title and salary, she emphasizes the importance of self-discovery, intuition, and listening to our physiology to find greater fulfillment in our work.

00:39:37 - The Unforeseen Path,
Sara shares how her book took an unexpected turn, allowing her to incorporate more of the ups and downs and unexpected twists of her own journey. She believes that embracing the unexpected and staying true to oneself is essential when navigating career transitions.

00:43:35 - The Role of Physiology,
Sara explores the role of physiology in decision-making and career choices. She discusses the body's response to emotions and the importance of listening to our gut and heart, which are often overlooked in favor of the rational brain. Our bodies have evolved to seek joy and fulfillment, making

00:47:29 - The Importance of Sensory Reactions,
Sarah discusses how sensory reactions play a role in our conversations and decision-making. She mentions that although we may not have all of our senses when communicating virtually, we can still pick up on cues and signals through what we hear and see.

00:49:10 - The Impact of Lack of Sensory Information,
Sarah acknowledges that the lack of sensory information in virtual communication may affect our ability to recognize when it's time to make a change. She emphasizes the importance of paying attention to our emotions, body, and intuition to determine if something is not working for us.

00:50:59 - Ignoring Emotional and Physical Signs,
Sarah points out that we have been trained to leave our emotions and bodies at the door in the professional world. She believes that ignoring these signs can lead to disease and that we should listen to our emotions, body, and intuition for cues about what is and isn't working for us.

00:53:30 - Recognizing Signals and Taking Action,
Sarah shares her personal experiences of feeling a "scary buzz" and a mixture of anxiety and excitement when she knows she needs to take action. She encourages listeners to pay attention to their own body's signals and use them as a guide for making decisions.

00:58:15 - Using Visualization and Body Reactions,
Sarah suggests a practice of visualizing oneself in different situations and paying attention to the body's reactions. By connecting visualization to our bodies, we can determine what

01:02:51 - The Impact of a Job on Relationships,
Sara reflects on how her job affected her relationships in Australia and acknowledges that some of those relationships may not have been good for her in the first place.

01:03:30 - Measuring Readiness to Leave a Job,
Sara discusses her quit readiness quiz, which helps individuals assess their readiness to leave a job. Factors such as stability in other aspects of life, length of dissatisfaction, comfort with uncertainty, and financial stability are considered.

01:04:58 - Balancing Rationality and Emotion in Career Decisions,
Sara emphasizes the importance of not acting blindly on emotions when making career decisions. She suggests considering both rational and emotional factors, and taking a balanced approach that includes planning and thoughtful decision-making.

01:06:07 - Expanding and Growing Outside of Work,
Dan and Sara discuss the importance of personal growth and expansion, both within and outside of work. They highlight the need to listen to the signals of growth, such as feeling stuck or the desire to stretch and evolve, and finding opportunities to fulfill that growth.

01:10:30 - The Individualized Nature of Career Paths,
Sara emphasizes that there is no one-size-fits-all playbook for career decisions. Each person's journey is unique, and it's important to explore different paths and opportunities for growth, even if they may not directly align with one's current career. The focus is on individualized fulfillment and finding joy and meaning in various aspects of life.

01:18:36 - The Impact of Self-Objectification and Internalized Capitalism,
The guest discusses the harmful effects of self-objectification and internalized capitalism on individuals. She emphasizes how these societal pressures lead people to believe that their worth is tied to productivity and achieving success in their careers.

01:19:06 - The Historical Origins of Work Culture,
The conversation delves into the historical roots of work culture, tracing it back to the Industrial Revolution when humans were seen as resources to be valued based on their economic output. This mindset still persists and influences how we view work and ourselves today.

01:20:25 - Challenges for Women in the Business World,
The guest acknowledges that women face additional challenges in the business world, such as being judged based on their marital status and motherhood. Despite progress, biases and stereotypes still persist, making it important to address these issues for future generations.

01:21:23 - Overcoming Biases and Empowering Women,
The guest expresses her desire to empower her daughters and future generations of women by challenging societal biases and stereotypes. She metaphorically refers to carrying a "flamethrower" to burn down these biases and create a more equal and equitable society.

01:23:12 - Keeping an Open Mind and Trusting Yourself,
The guest encourages listeners to approach unconventional ideas with an open mind, acknowledging that scientific advancements have often debunked previously perceived "mystical" beliefs. She emphasizes the importance of curiosity, self-discovery

*Notes were created by humans, with help from Capsho, my preferred AI show notes assistant.

114: How Emotion and Intuition are Powerful Career Tools with Sara McElroy

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